For Gladys ... Wheyms-Dalrimple

**Shizara** · 20-05-2009, 07:10 AM

Just a quick response before going off to a meeting. I might be able to locate a living relative for you that I think would be a cousin to your mother. Have emailed the person I made contact with. Gertrude Hankins and Flinders McRae had 3 children that I can see. Will let you know if I get a response.

**Gladys** · 20-05-2009, 09:00 AM

How cool is that!! Brilliant. Mum has from time to time mentioned Uncle Flin whom she says was a 'Dear'. If I'm recalling him as 'The Uncle Flin' He had a bull that was friendly and docile and Mum used to go along and stroke it etc.I hope this relative does reply. How clever you are.Thank you. Have a good day.

Mum says they were Jack, Joan and Betty. Jack married a french woman, Joan married Dan Lethbridge and had 2 boys one of whom was Mike and Betty was an actress and married an American and had a little boy. She moved to the USA. I'm getting confused because she also went on to say Aunt May had 2 girls one; Marjorie died at childbirth leaving her baby Heather and the other was Dulcie who married a Marchbanks and moved to Australia. _ Its unlocked lots more and more to the point getting the memories organised.

**Gladys** · 23-05-2009, 03:27 PM

Hello Shizara, I have been working so not very active but have had a few chances at going round in circles with this today. Have you heard from any rellies? Any news on Sarah? Anyway, I've come across a few documents about The Stairs and thier ancestors but still it 'rubs out' Lieut.Col. James and to some extent The 3rd Bart.William his father. I think a decision was made in The House of Lords in 17 something about the lineage but I'm not sure. I also see that the line became extinct in 1971 from the lineage created then but has recently been 'reactivated' with The present Stair line. I wish I knew more about all of this, its so confuddling and exciting at the same time.

**Shizara** · 02-06-2009, 08:01 PM

Not heard from any of the rellies yet.. I did email William Dalrymple the author but not heard from him either.

Nothing on Sarah yet.

At this point are you happy to go with the likelihood of George Wemyss Dalrymple being the father of George Samuel Wemyss Dalrymple?

**Shizara** · 02-06-2009, 09:33 PM

If you go to the address I gave you there is the transcription for George Wemyss Dalrymple. If you have a problem finding it just PM me.

**Gladys** · 02-06-2009, 10:45 PM

Hello Shizara, Yes,it does seem logical that George Weymms-Dalrymple was George Samuel Weymss-Dalrymple's Father. I must say I am rather confuddled by the amount of Dalrymples there are and were. From that I'd really like to know how the 'Weymss' got added as there are few records of those. I wonder also if 'The Wallaces' are relevant, I still can't find the letter that mentions them although some one has said this letter exists.(Remember I have found an entry for twins...-Wallaces') I really don't know at this point. Also my Mother corrected me yesterday saying the Oil Painting is of a General So ???Samuel, or William? I'm not sure. I feel as though I swam in treacle today after searching. I really do not find this an easy thing, not that I expect it to be. I just think some people are better at it than me- you for example.

**Shizara** · 03-06-2009, 09:48 PM

Did you manage to download the probate transcription ok?

**Gladys** · 04-06-2009, 10:39 AM

Dear Shizara,
Thank heavens your on the 'airwaves' again. No I haven't been able to do that. I messaged you to ask if you would mind sending the link again. Sorry, I'm just abit stupid with things like filing and folders etc. I guess this does mean you've found something- cool

Is it for George Samuel Weymss-Dalrymple? If I remember correctly, in my searches through Past Papars online from NZ, I did see his final settlement was something like £749. A long time prior to his death, there were other things as well, like the sale at auction of about 12 properties he owned with one in London. I'm sure I told you but excuse me if I didn't because I must say, I have very confused again with all the James' and Anns etc. I am really stuck with trying to find evidence of George Weymss-Dalrymple's parentage, 'The Wallaces' may be something and nothing- have you had any luck?

**Gladys** · 04-06-2009, 09:48 PM

Brilliant stuff now that George Weymss-Dalrymple's parentage is confirmed, it would be excellent to confirm a birth entry though.(Walleces etc...) That confirms George Samuel Weymss-Dalrymple's parentage and my Mother's who shall now from here on be known as 'my lady'!!! It is due to her and she's still giggling.

So what we know so far is the 3rd Bart- William Dalrymple's 1st Son John and his second son William are from Agnes Crawford. Lieut.Col. James his 3rd son, Weymss-Dalrymple and Samuel are from Ann Philip, the 3rd Bart's 2nd wife as Agnes died in 1755. Where did we find James' birth in 1756? James married Anne Philip and had George Weymss-Dalrymple who married Eliza Thompson-Hall in 1826, Guernsey and they had George Samuel Weymss-Dalrymple in 1828 in L'Orient. The link below shows an address for GWD in L'Orient July 12th 1834 So:-
What I'd really like to establish now is why there is no birth entry that we can find for George WD and how do you trace school attendances etc for such? Further on from that why was he 'sent' away? The Ann/Anne Philip ladies William 3rd Bart and Lieut.Col. James married were different peeps -Thank heavens. Now, does anyone have any leads on the gossip columns of the time and decisions of The Lords in Parliament in that era?

Full text of "A Description of the Azores, Or Western Islands. From Personal Observation ..."
This is a book wriiten by GDW and some letters as well. In them he does refer to his relations..' my relations...General Samuel Dalrymple'

**Shizara** · 06-06-2009, 04:38 PM

"Crikey mate!" - Grins.. am catching up with the conversation in the family research site. Am so glad you went there because it likely confirms now what I have been putting in here, which, if I am honest, are combinations of clarity and treacle.

Will try and finish the reading tonight and see where we move to next.

**Gladys** · 07-06-2009, 09:43 AM

It is fun and they have been so very helpful as you suggested would be the case. I must confess, I'm a bit 'stuck in the treacle and marmalade ' again as to where to go next. It does seem we need firm evidence of Lieut.Col. James' birthdate, an entry or something similar, some way of establishing GWD's birthdate, (we have his death, last Will and Testament) His writings give pointers to birth connections 'my relations General George Roberst and General Samuel Dalrymple' (App 367, page 149) Interestingly, in reading through what I have, I have noted 3 times now that there is the very real evidence of a daughter to GWD previously not found. '(my Dear Son-in-Law having fallen in the cause of Donna Maria)' (App 367, page 147) and 'in consequence on my Dear Son-in-law 'William Dawson, having being killed on board Her M.F.M.frigate Donna Maria in the engagement of October 11th 1832' (App 368, page 148)
Remembering that GWD married Eliza Thompson-Hall in 1826 and GSWD was born in 1828, this would suggest he may have been married before and had the daughter who was married to Midshipman Dawson.

Since writing the above a couple of hours back, I have been wading through the treacle. I may have found something or there again -nothing. The IGI gives 2 references for Male Births for James Dalrymple 'about 1747, Causland, Midlothian, Scotland.' Entries 23 and 22, I think the entry for 22 is more favourable simply because it lists his death as 1800.(Entry 22= film number 177898, Page 1020, ref 40301/ entry 23=184272,page 1077,ref 31686) Church of the Latter Day Saints. If this is 'our' James' and I'm not at all sure how on earth I access those films, then as I first suspected he may have been born out of wedlock to William (and Ann) as William's wife Agnes died 1755. It makes sense from the etiquette of the era his parentage would have been 'accepted' if his parents became married, which they apparently did.What now, any ideas?(Scotlandspeople birth/baptism record of William son of 3rd Bart.William and Agnes Crawford 05/03/1747 GROS entry 680/0010 0130- confirms my need to look at The LDS archive as SP gives specifics for Birth/Baptism of William. LDS entry is for birth record for a 'James')

**Shizara** · 07-06-2009, 01:55 PM

Seringapatam 1799: Biographies - Hyderabad Army

DALRYMPLE, James (1757-1800) - Lieutenant-Colonel
[British Subsidiary Force (HEIC) - Hyderabad Army]
Commissioned: Cadet (HEIC) 1770; Ensign 22 February 1782; Lieutenant 4 July 1778; Captain 2 November 1783; Major 1 March 179*; Lieuteant-Colonel 1 June 1796.
Dalrymple had been a prisoner of Hyder Ali and Tipu Sultan at Seringapatam with David Baird. Both men had been captured after the disastrous British defeat at Pollilur in 1780.
He died at Hyderabad on 9 December 1800. He was married to Mooti Begum, the daughter of the the Nawab of Masulipatam, and they had five (5) children - 4 sons and 1 daughter, Noor Jah Begum.

That suggests to me that his birth may well be c1757.

**Gladys** · 07-06-2009, 03:02 PM

Gosh Shizara, that's brilliant. I must say I haven't had much luck looking for his army records. I'm still unsure about his DOB.I've looked at the Will of The Dowager LAdy Ann Dalrymple. It's very hard to read and as yet nothing is standing out. I also looked at the entry for the Will of The Late Lieut.Col. James Dalrymple 8/12/1800 at NAS and it says something in the synopsis that contradicts or adds to William Dalrymple's writing that says The Lieut.Col. had 5 children with Mooti Begum-4 boys and 1 girl unless I have recalled that wrongly.The Will of James says:-
'Attested true copy of last will .... of James Dalrymple, Lieut-Col in the HEIC's coast military establishment [half-brother of Sir John Dalrymple, 4th bart of Cousland],... with copy letter from E McBean to her sister Noorjah Begum, daughters of said James, educated under the name of Watson, and from Noorjah Begum, 26 October 1871, to H D E Dalrymple,...The Adyar, at Madras [India].' This suggests William Dalrymple's research may be missing detail. If Noorjah Begum wrote in 1871, she was either 71 or older and I am also mindful of the Birth of George Weymss-Dalrymple for whom an entry is seeming to be absent. For that reason I'd like to check out The LDS entry which I now see I can do by phone tomorrow at a LDS history centre nearby.That entry says Birth 'ABout 1747' and 'Causland' which may have been a mistranscript of Cousland. 'about' may be because it isn't easy to read.

**Shizara** · 07-06-2009, 06:28 PM

So much intrigue and mystery going on here. Of course there is always a chance that George Wemyss Dalrymple had an Indian name too.

I have typed out that letter from George Wemyss Dalrymple that is mentioned above - the one about William Dawson. Shall I upload it for you?

**Gladys** · 07-06-2009, 08:08 PM

Skullduggery- somewhere, intrigue definitely. Have you spotted something? Yes, do it, it all helps. Marmalade and treacle cemented with mud!

**Gladys** · 08-06-2009, 03:27 PM

Dear Shizara-I'm still in suspense. Have you checked your Pms?

I couldn't phone the local LDS History centre. The number doesn't connect so I've emailed them through thier website, more suspense but not half as much as the main one. Fingers crossed.
Can you tell me how we know Lieut.Col. James married Ann Philip and Mooti Begum. The source for the latter- is that from the writings of William Dalrymple; author? The rootschat peeps are suggesting he may not have married Ann Philip and are asking how this is established. I can't remember.