No more spooky stuff Thank Heavens. Well, I've been trawling through the ARchives to find various pieces of information. NA J90/577 dated 1835 may be a good read. Also, NA PROB 11/1844 247/285 and 247/286, put these together with the decision for case sessions papers for the prenuptial agreement for Christian and Hugh.
Ah well, if you have a good story there is always someone after it...
My understanding is that the lineage went directly from the 2nd Bart of Cousland, Sir John Dalrymple, to his oldest son who became William Dalrymple, 3rd Bart of Cousland. Upon the death of William it went to his oldest son, by his first wife Agnes Crawford, Sir John Dalrymple, who inherited the title of 4th Bart of Cousland. So am not sure how it could have gone from John to William.consult The Lyon Register to see why the lineage went from William to his brother John
Sir James Dalrymple, 1st Bt. had the title of 1st Baronet Dalrymple, of Borthwick, Killock and Cousland.
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Sir John Dalrymple, 2nd Bt. who would appear to be his eldest son inherited the title.
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Sir William Dalrymple, 3rd Bt. would seem to be the eldest son inherited the title upon his father's death.
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Sir John Dalrymple-Hamilton-Macgill, 4th Bt. as the eldest son of Sir William and his first wife was next in line.
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John Hamilton Dalrymple, 5th Bt. was also the 8th Earl of Stair and would seem to be the eldest son of Sir John Dalrymple-Hamilton-Macgill (just to confuse everyone)
Everyone confused now?
Cool
Definetly- jelly very confuzzledAny way, My Mum was reminiscing tonight before I saw her off on her 'cruise' (Portsmouth to Bilbao Ferry and back again in 3+ days). She says she cannot understand why she was never invited around to 10 Linton Street which is where her 2 cousins lived. Granny owned the house. She says the girls always came to Granny's and they played there.She was more still perplexed because she thinks it was because they were blond blue eyed fair skinned children and because she is and was a darker skinned brown eyed child there was a stigma - it still sticks with her.I said to her- more like they were embarrassed because they lived 'in grace and favour'. This is very sad to know she grew up feeling like this.
I've found more things - still got lots and lots of reading.
Shizara, this is what The Secretary of The Lord Lyon Office says
' Arms were matriculated in the Public Register of All Arms and Bearings in Scotland in 1895 in name of John Hamilton Dalrymple, Earl of Stair, Viscount of Stair and Dalrymple, Baron Newliston, Glenluce and Stranraer, Baron Oxonford of Cousland, and Baronet of Nova Scotia, wherein his descent is narrated. This states, among other genealogy, that Sir North Hamilton Dalrymple succeeded his brother Sir John Hamilton Dalrymple, 5th Baronet of Cousland, and 8th Earl of Stair, who had died without issue on 10th January 1853, having succeeded Sir John William Henry Dalrymple, 8th Baronet and 7th Earl of Stair, with whom the whole male issue of Sir John Dalrymple, 2nd Baronet and 2nd Viscount Stair (created in 1703 Baron of Newliston, Glenluce, Stranraer, Viscount Dalrymple and Earl of Stair with remainder failing his own male issue to the heirs male of his father Sir James Dalrymple of Stair, 1st Baronet, Lord President of the Court of Session, elevated to the Peerage in 1690 as Baron Glenluce and Stranraer and Viscount Stair) terminated.
You will find more detailed genealogical information on the family in works such as Scots Peerage and The Complete Peerage.
The descent of a peerage or baronetcy title is dependent on the destination narrated in the original grant of the title and where a particular line fails heirs are sought in the nearest heir working backwards through each generation to the original grantee or, as in this case, to the father of the grantee. The destination may be specified, for example, as heirs male of the body, heirs male, or heirs general where the title may descend through and to females.'
Well I hope that's clear- it is about as clear as mud to me at the moment but I'll work through it.
Last edited by Gladys; 18-09-2009 at 05:20 PM. Reason: More
My contact in India has been finding some sources. She says she now has 'Dalrymple Flu'Will tell you as I get it.She has identified some of WD's sources.
' the only known and existing member of the nawab of masulipatinam's family is studying medicine in Romania.'
She has also found a reference by Kirkpatrick to James' Sister-In-Law Margaret Dalrymple who sounds as though she was not flavour of the month! I haven't seen a Margaret Dalrymple up until now when I looked on the Stirnet.com site. She is listed as a child of William 3rd Bart. but there is the note against her name 'not known by which marriage' James is shown as 'died unmarried 1800'.I'm not a member of that site so looking at it is brief and tedious for those who know.
Last edited by Gladys; 20-09-2009 at 02:38 PM.
This is so confusing as there was another Margaret Dalrymple married to a Major Samuel Dalrymple in India at the same time as James was there. That Margaret was described as 'odious'. She is described as a cousin to James in White Mughals. I wonder if anyone has a copy they can check this reference? Is it 'our' james she's a cousin of or James Kirkpatrick? Just a thought.
More on General Samuel Dalrymple and the Regimental Colours. It really has been a great day so far. I spoke to the Archivist at Glasgow Cathedral this afternoon. He was literally thrilled to make all the connections because as far as they believed the colours were donated from private hands. No one knows who Agnes Hankins is/was or her heritage. He asked me to update the connections for him as they will correct the plaque for the colours to reflect them.
Last edited by Gladys; 21-09-2009 at 05:15 PM. Reason: More
About the the colours
'On the east side of the pulpitum under the gallery are the colours of the 3rd Regiment of Foot Guards, later to become the Scots Guards. Under ther Quire Screen arch on. its south side a framed descriptive note tells that Colonel Samuel Dalrymple of the 3rd Regiment commanded the Detachment of the Brigade of Guards who carried the King's Colour in Egypt in 1801. A descendant, Sir North Dalrymple-Hamilton of Bargany, gave the colours to the Cathedral in 1921. More recently they have been cleaned, restored and remounted on a new backing by Miss Margaret Baird Smith, Dairy, and Miss Marjory Findlay, Edinburgh. They were rededicated on 14th November, 1971, in the presence of Admiral Sir Frederick Dalrymple-Hamilton, brother of the original donor.'
This is so wrong. He didn't have anything to do with them.He's aside from them. a Cousin, far removed. He had not a lot to do with them.Agnes had them, she handed them over.They;the colours were with my great grandmother, Agnes Weymss-Dalrymple who became Agnes Hankins and lived and died in New Zealand 1942.She was passionate that they were repatriated with The Regiment. The Prince of Wales offered her £1000 at the time and she was furious-angry. I think because he did not know to whom he was speaking.(my thought!!!!)
I have been told today that the info about where the flag came from will be corrected for the republication of The cathedral Guide Book soon. Scroll down to paragraph 66 for the book link below.
Full text of "Down under with the Prince"
Last edited by Gladys; 22-09-2009 at 11:13 AM. Reason: Proof
Mum and dad's history is interesting as far as Iknow it.
My dad came from Oxford. He was in ww1, and was injured 3 times twicw at Passchendale. Each time he was sent home to various hospitals to be 'repaired' and then sent back---but---the 3rd time , he'd had enough and escaped in a lorry carrying bins full of kitchen waste. He went to Leeds -changed his name, and no-one except his Mum knew he was alive. That was in 1916-17.Later we know he got married under his new name and had a child. The next thing anyone knew, he had
surfaced in Coventry -divorced--around 1931 under his original name and then married my Mum. We have tried to piece together his life but he never would tell us much except a a few funny stories about various lodgingss he 'd live in.. And if I say that he was always sparing with the truth, it would be an understatement.
My Mum came from Kendal and her father was inww1 too and also badly injured.While he was in hospital my Grandma was evicted -couldn't pay the rent-with 6 children and eventually found a wooden shack in in the quarry
at Shap.-no water excep the stream and cooking on an outside fire--I imagine like a bonfire. That's where Grandad came home to until someone found them a house in Lancaster-0ne up and 2 down. They must have been in quite a state by then.
Ihave a photo of the family, the youngest is 2 and they look so poor. The boys have toes out of their shoes. Grandma looks fierce and worn and grandad is so thin and wears a badge to prove that he has been to war-otherwise they would all have been ostracised.
There is lots more but it's late ,and would possibly be onlyof interest to my family, although how my parents met in Coventry is interesting.!!!
Last edited by cathidaw; 02-02-2010 at 04:26 PM.
Cathidaw, your family history is as 'rich' as mine. I am struck by the shear will to live and survive. It would be so interesting to find out more and so humbling too. I wonder how many would get that far today. Imagine being wounded and returned 2 times let alone facing another ordeal. I really do not blame him one jot. Hats off ; he did more than his lions share I'd say.
I've had such wonderful support with all of this and it continues. Shizara has to be Thanked foremost. There's a Lull at the moment for practical reasons- 1 researcher has had a bereavement and others are madly delving through archives I didn't even know about. I have a chap who has gone over and beyond his usual scope;climbing over obstacles of missed entries in the main library about burial records,trudging through graveyard inventories, 'acosting' unsuspecting graveyard groundsmen about any old ledgers they had hidden away in dusty old cupboards which they did and trapsing the grave yard itself, he found the grave of GWD which if he hadn't would have been lost. Plus with my NZ family, the reality of it being so far away is playing its part. Time zones etc. NZ archives are logged in a variety of ways and getting one department to talk to another is as you can imagine a bit like our Government departments although I have to say they (the NZ'ers) have been so very helpful- not quite the same here
Just thought I'd let you know that one of the people searching this has found that GSWD seemed to be doing very well in Marshall Place, Perth 1861'ish. She says she has found that GSWD and the 2 girls went to NZ in 1863 but as yet hasn't found John George getting there. Shizara found him with them there in 1870. Still no sign of Sarah.
The post today bought confirmation that J H Hankins was born 13/96/1846, Swinburn, Herefordshire, England. He arrived in NZ 1863 and spent all his remaining days there except for 1 year in England.
Agnes Sophia Weymss Hankins Nee Dalrymple was born 5/02/1851 Leith Scotland as we know. However, she too arrived in NZ 1863 and spent all her remaining days there except for 4 years in Australia. As there seems to be nothing to say she went to OZ during her married years, It would seem reasonable to propose that these 4 years were sometime between 1863 and 1871. I think a search in Oz may yield some info on Sarah who doesn't seem to have made it to NZ at all. John George Weymss-Dalrymple seems to have arrived in NZ in 1871. He would have been just 9 in 1863, deemed too young perhaps toleave his Mother. Wasn't GSWD an estate agent in Australia? I'm sure there is reference to him doing something like that with an Australian address. Must have a look for that again.If Its turns up, perhaps that township is where we may find Sarah.
I just got home to an email from the archivist at Hailebury College. He says he cannot find any pupil called George Weymss-Dalrymple or George 'Watson'. I have also asked him if he can find one called James Dalrymple but as yet he hasn't got back on that. He said there were Dalrymples at the school but they were from the North Berwick branch.
This is where the digging gets more difficult.. Some of the boulders are big. There is also the chance the names were airbrushed away or perhaps transcription errors mean that the names recorded are not as we think. Perhaps a search for "Watson" might produce something - apart from a zillion others with that surname :-P
Cool
MMmm, perhaps I should ask him if there were any Watsons? Obviously now with Data protection he may only be able to say 'yes or no' but not actually who. Bit stumped on this. I tantively looked at Eton Old boys and Winchester Oldwyckens. You can't aceess the latter unless you are one. The Eton site lists notabele old boys but I suspect you have to be one to find any others. Does any one have access to any of this? I also think we need to look at the executors of James' Will. Noorjah did say in her letter of 1871 to HDE Dalrymple that her siblings were sent to England by her Father's executors. These children may have been privately educated by governesses etc at home somewhere. Mud and mire I suspect ahead.
Hello, nothing back from any of them. Nevermind. I asked about Eliza's (GWD's Eliza) other children; re: The Ramsays/Ramseys. Maybe one of the other daughters became a Ramsay/Ramsey.
My Mum rang today having been thinking about this lot. She told me when she last went back to NZ in 1958 which is news to me because I didn't think she'd been there since she left in 1956. Anyway, she says she walked into Aunt Nell's house where she and Aunt May(Fitzherbert) were living and she now recalls seeing that elusive painting of 'The General' in scarlet dress uniform. This is the painting that really sparked this whole search off. She recalled it as a child in her Granny's hallway-Agnes Sophia Hankins-nee Weymss-Dalrymple and it struck her then. It has been some 8 months since we set out on this so this is really amazing she can place its last hanging place as she can recall it. I am amazed at this- she's shortly on 5th December to become 89 years old. She drives, does lunch and lives independantly. This family is amazing. I thank her for these genes. On from that I have found out yesterday with more of her recollections that my Father's father was a MC- Lieut.Col MC.- Crikes.Royal Irish Fusliers.
Dad and dogs
shall try to remember some tales my dad told us. As I said, he was sparing with the truth so he may have embroidered it a bit.
When he deserted from the army -WW1- read my other piece for why- he lived in some rough lodgings up in Leeds. His landlady had a big thin scraggy-dog-- he hated dogs-and it wandered around at mealtimes begging food, and jumping up. One day he asked the woman if the dog could have some chocolate. She said yes and he threw it a chocolate hard toffee. It went into a corner and left them alone to eat the meal, while it desperately tried to chew the toffee which stuck its teeth together . Everyone -all the lodgers- were laughing but the landlady wasn't happy(understated) and said as much -any more Antics and you're out, the lot of you.
Back to normal after that and the damn dog got worse. scavenging at the table. You have to remember that these lodgers were all rough working men and even they got fed up with it. My dad said he'd try to sort it. He did . one evening he asked the lady if the dog could have a piece of chocolate and promised that it would be soft-no toffee and showed it to her.. By then she had forgiven them all . He threw th dog the chocolate and it gobbled it down and begged for more. "Have the lot then you greedy pig" he said
He always rolled with laughter as he told us this story. The choc. was something like Ex-lax. He said , "It shot outside and we didn't see the dog for a week"
WE always laughd too- I believe there was some truth in it knowing how much he hated dogs.
- cruel but I still think it was funny.
He had a dog later in life-in his 70s-80s and the dog idolised him even though we thought he wasn't gentle with it and called it all sorts of names. He even made it stand still while he went over it with the vacuumn cleaner rather than brush it becaus e it shed white hairs every where. He'd never have it in the house at his own mealtimes-just shut it in the garden in all weathers til he'd finished, then let it in and it stood on a towel until it was dry, looking up at him with cow eyes We suspected he was soft with it when no-one was around,but he didn't want to lose face.
Last edited by cathidaw; 02-02-2010 at 04:23 PM.
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