European Union

[Lex]

Dare I start a thread on this subject!! With all the talk about a referendum, I thought it might be worth starting the WOL debate on the issue. Here's an article to start things off:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24859486

I think along the same lines as David Cameron, and the EU needs a lot of reform. Basically, I'm pro-European on the economic/business side of things, but am fairly anti-European on the political/integration side of things. Although one seems to be almost inevitable happening along the other, the political side's going a bit too far for my liking.

[rebbonk]

I'm anti European full-stop.

What irks me is that we've never had a true vote on membership. The referendum that we had in '75 was to see if we wished to remain as trading partners with the EEC. Things have changed a lot since then!

I'm firmly convinced that Heath knew full well what he was doing and sold us and our sovereignty down the river when he signed us up.

[Lex]

Yes, that seems to be the generally accepted view of things nowadays. We were basically lied to by those in power at the time.

[Gladys]

Not a lot has changed then in my view.

[Margaret]

I have to say that it seems to me that the only guarantee we will get a referendum is if a substiantial number of UKIP mp's get electecd.
No one has the slightest confidence that the present prime minister really wants to hold a referendum , or if he does he won't fix it in some way.
Quite the worst governmet we have had since Blair.
The EU in my opinion is way beyond reform and we now simply have to get out as soon as possible.

[rebbonk]

The EU in my opinion is way beyond reform and we now simply have to get out as soon as possible.

I believe that the EU is too far out of control for reform. I also believe, no matter what the people of the UK (or the rest of the Euro area) want, breaking it up and freeing ourselves from it will be nigh on impossible. - I actually see a civil war type of scenario should the break up occur.

[Gladys]

I am sure the Channel five News just said there is going to be a referendum on EU membership. Either they did or its my wishful thinking. Rebbonk, I think now we may be far too deeply into it to make separation possible. If they do hold a referendum I can see some tripping point that will make complete separation impossible.

[rebbonk]

How many times did Ireland vote until they got it 'right'?

[Lex]

I think it was at least twice - we'll probably have to go through the same thing :(

[Gladys]

Only twice? Now that many EU folk live here, it may take more and that is worrying. I think they get to vote too if they have an address, pay council tax and a NI number.

[rebbonk]

As much as anything, if we get a vote, (which I seriously doubt) it'll depend on the make-up of the turn out. Historically the 'greys' have turned out in quite substantial numbers and many of these are hardline against the EU. The younger generation seem to have a much more pro EU attitude, but are not so likely to turn out. Of course, if it were made a criminal offence (as in some countries) not to vote, it might get very interesting.

[Gladys]

Oooh -er, Rebbonk, if you didn't vote and it became a criminal offense if you didn't; then I'd be up for the chop. Will you and the ' gang ' visit or bake a cake with the requisite file? I only haven't voted since the Blair Inc got in- that did me in and we suffer from them to now. I do also recognise that Mrs ' T ' did also sell us out. I believe (unless I have been wrongly advised) that it is because of her that we are now communing with our EU neighbors in agriculture.Now our farmers get more to send our lamb across the puddle to have it returned for our meal tables. (This is an example and I refer to welsh lamb in particular) Correct me if I am wrong. I don't wish nor do I intend to offend.

[rebbonk]

I think all of our PMs since WW2 have sold us out one way or another Gladys.

Considering we supposedly won the war and Germany and Japan lost, the victors don't seem to be doing too well do they?

[Lex]

One theory I've heard is that because Japan & Germany were demilitarized after the war, they could devote their resources soley to building strong economies.

[rebbonk]

I think they also received quite a lot by way of 'restorative investment' whilst we were left virtually bankrupt, so much so that we sold off our best innovations.

We led the world in aviation, what happened?

[Margaret]

For anyone interested in listening in.


Tonight from 7pm on LBC (a London radio station) and Sky News,
LibDem leader Nick Clegg and Ukip leader Nigel Farage have their first of two debates about whether Britain should be in or out of the EU...
The two other party leaders (Cameron and Miliband) were too frightened to debate the issue in front of the voters!

[Gladys]

That will be an entertaining program. Messrs C and M showing true to form then?

[Lex]

Well, less than a week to go to the European Elections, and I'm still not sure who to vote for. I got leaflets from Labour (got binned - bunch of idiots), UKIP (got binned - bunch of idiots), our current MEP (Nikki Something - no idea who she is - seemed to be an idiot -got binned), and the Conservatives (actually read it - seemed to contain a lot of rubbish - not convinced - binned it)

[rebbonk]

I'll attend and vote Lex, but I might just spoil my paper by saying that there isn't one of them deserving my vote. - BTW, you do know your vote is not secret don't you?

[Gladys]

Lex, our candidates' leaflets received similar treatment for the same reasons too. I also am none the wiser as to which lot to vote for. Rebbonk, is that correct that they know which box we tick? What a farce all this secret ballot box thing is.

[rebbonk]

As I understand it Gladys, a vote can be tracked back to a person. When you attend, they cross your name off the list, then give you a voting slip that has a serial number on it. I believe that number is recorded against your name on their register.

[rebbonk]

Gladys, this clarifies my point...


If my vote is secret, why do you write my elector number beside my ballot paper number on the 'corresponding number list'?

The poll clerk writes your elector number on the corresponding number list to protect your vote. The election rules require that the elector number is recorded on the list against the number of the ballot paper issued to you. This is to avoid the possibility of counterfeit ballot papers being used and to assist with the detection of alleged fraud.

If ballot papers are numbered, it is far more difficult for an unscrupulous person to introduce copies of official ballot papers into the ballot box. If a fraudulent act has occurred, it would be possible to detect the offence by reference to the corresponding number list.

At the close of poll, the corresponding number list is placed in a sealed envelope by the presiding officer and taken to the Returning Officer. After the count has taken place, the used ballot papers are also sealed. The only occasion when the sealed packets can be opened is on the order of a judge as a result of an election petition or during an investigation into an alleged election offence. Even then, it is very rare for the documents to be examined except in cases where fraud or personation (someone voting illegally on someone else's behalf) are being investigated.


Source : Elmbridge (http://www.elmbridge.gov.uk/faq/faq.htm?mode=20&pk_faq=493)

[Gladys]

This must be under the guise of the Great Democratic Vote then?

[rebbonk]

Preventing fraud I guess, for now! How long until the powers that be start removing the real dissenters in society?

[Lex]

The European Parliament election results are in; that's the last we'll hear from our MEPs for the next 5 years.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-27570545

[rebbonk]

Oh I don't know Lex, LibDem former MEPs are likely to be quite vocal at the jobcentres!

Anyone know how much those ousted get by way of resettlement?

[rebbonk]

Anyone know how much those ousted get by way of resettlement?

B*gger!

"MEPs leaving Brussels after European elections to receive 'golden goodbyes' of up to £157k"

Source ; Express (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/472835/European-Union-EU-MEPs-leaving-Brussels-to-receive-golden-goodbyes-of-up-to-157-000)

Scandalous, and don't forget that we're paying for these usless articles.

[Lex]

Good grief. A lot of them will probably get nice lobbying or 'consultancy' jobs too.

[Lex]

An MEP alleged to be on the fiddle? I'm shocked & surprised!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-27641427

[Gladys]

Oh Dear. That isn't going to help is it? Mr C was only saying yesterday that Brussels had been ' too big, too bossy and needs to get its nose out of our business more' or words to that effect. It rather sounds like he's doing a ' U ' turn. let's watch and see. Might be waiting a while though.

[Lex]

An MEP alleged to be on the fiddle? I'm shocked & surprised!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-27641427

She spent £120K of her own salary on her work activities; she must be on the straight & narrow. She obviously worked hard for her cause; no-one had heard of Nikki until she'd been arrested.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-28443384

[rebbonk]

No smoke without fire?

Or a nasty smear campaign?

I await any trial with interest.

[Lex]

Almost definitely some fire, and maybe a touch of smear too!

[Lex]

No-one's ever made a connection between UKIP & the Nazis before!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28729098

[rebbonk]

I have!

I have often referenced the similarities of the UK and 30s Germany and the fact that Farage is charismatic as was Hiltler.

Ooh, MSM cottoning on are they?

[Lex]

A vain attempt to stop voters defecting to UKIP: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29985949
Sadly, the PM's just come out with another load of rubbish & hot air. Red Ed & Nigel Farage would be even worse....

[rebbonk]

I truly despair. There isn't one decent leader amongst the lot of them. Farage is the best of a bad lot, and frankly, I'm not sure I trust him at all.

[cathidaw]

Farage may surprise us all.

I can't see any other way our government will ever change
What other way can anyone usurp the type of MP we've had for the the past centuries with their antiquated old boy system. Then, as now they were all rich men and educated to rule ordinary people, who of course were not allowed to have minds of their own. Watch Downton.!
Many of the brighter MPs knew that educating the proletarians was a bad move ,( horror that we would get to think ourselves equal.) It's been a long struggle and with this lot we will have less freedom.We'll go backwards.
The only thing bothering me is the type of person he chooses for his own party.Up to now he's had a hotch potch , but hopefully he has learned from it. Some of his latest , at least have had experience.
Cant wait for the fireworks!

[Lex]

My fear about the types like Farage, is that Hitler got into power using populist tactics - and we all know what happened in 1930's Germany! I've voted UKIP a couple of times in European elections to send a message to UK governments of various colours, but am weary of voting for them in a General Election - you have to be careful of what you wish for!

[rebbonk]

you have to be careful of what you wish for!

Ain't that true!

I've compared Farrage and his populist movement to Hitler on many occasions. I still see many similarities, but I also see similarities in the political climate that allowed Hitler to come to power. The UK is in dangerous waters.

[rebbonk]

Oops, has Nigel revealed his true roots?

he wants to replace NHS (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-caught-camera-admitting-4617184)

Once a Tory....?

[Lex]

With the in/out referendum taking place at some point in the next 2 years where does everyone stand?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32793642

Personally, I'm thinking of voting to stay in the EU, but am starting to lean towards voting for leaving.

[rebbonk]

I've always been anti Europe. In my opinion we've been Royally shafted ever since we joined. - And I truly believe that Heath deliberately lied and mislead the population as to what we were signing up to.

I will vote out. However, I somehow don't think it will be that easy. I don't believe we'll get out even in the event of a NO vote: unless the migration crisis causes the EU to implode.

[Lex]

I'm edging towards voting to leave; the EU needs complete, wholesale reform, not bits of piecemeal fiddling: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35471117

One question that hasn't been asked yet, is what will David Cameron's plan be if the UK votes to leave the EU?

[rebbonk]

I believe he's said that it'll be taken seriously and we'll do exactly that.

However, in reality I suspect that like Southern Ireland over the Euro, we'll vote until we give the right answer.

In all honesty, I don't see us ever being able to cut the ties. I think Heath sold us down the river many years ago, but few realised at the time.

[Lex]

Yes, that is 1 thought that's been floating round my head; would we better off outside the EU, but having to follow their rules & give them money (eg Norway & Switzerland), or stay in & at least have a say on what the rules are?

[rebbonk]

I'm anti Europe and favour a complete break from it. That said, in the scenario you present above (and it may come down to that,) I'd have to say that staying in as a full member would be my choice. We might as well have a say in what affects us.

[Lex]

The date for the referendum has been set for 23rd June: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35634239

[Lex]

Nadhim Zahawi's shown his hand: http://stratfordobserver.co.uk/news/stratford-mp-nadhim-zahawis-statement-britain-leave-eu/

[rebbonk]

I'm in the OUT camp, though I think barmy Boris coming out the way he has might be a curse. Many people (me included) see him as nothing but a clown. Frankly I dread the thought of him ever becoming PM.

[cathidaw]

I too am in the out camp rebbonk, but I'm sure Boris is a lot more than just a clown underneath all his buffoonery.However, we're used to clowns by now aren't we, and if I'm wrong it can't be any worse than what we are used too.
I believe if he'd gone to the E U with Cameron's list he'd have blustered his way to get what he wanted.
I think Cameron has made himself a spectacle.All that time and money spent to get-What?

[rebbonk]

Whichever way the vote goes, I think Camoron is finished.

[Lex]

I've known 1 or 2 people who've worked with Boris over the years, apparently he's definitely not the buffoon than he comes across as.
I'll always remember Davis Cameron's 'Heir to Blair' comment, and how true it is - he comes over as being just as weak & slimy; frankly, I only voted Tory art the last election to keep Labour out.
I'm still leaning towards voting to stay in the EU, but only for the reason that leaving will cause MAJOR problems for out economy, which would potentially take decades to sort out (especially with the global economy starting to look shaky). Otherwise, the 'Stay In' camp doesn't have much to go on; we have a generally good police service, and MI5 & MI6 have good relations with their counterparts in friendly countries around the world, so that argument doesn't cut the mustard with me.
Sadly, a lot of the 'Get Out' camp's arguments (ok, a lot of this came from The Telegraph) seem to hinge round the fact that we were the world's first major democracy, brought the rule of law to the the world etc. (ie looking towards our glorious past), so I'm not entirely convinced by them.
No-one seems to be paying much attention to what the UK's relationship with the rest of the world will be in the event of a 'Get Out' vote, except Nichola Sturgeon, who'd take it as an opportunity for another shot at independence for Scotland.

[rebbonk]

I suspect that 'fear of the unknown' will be a major factor in the vote. It's not clear by any means what will replace things like the human rights laws if we do depart.

[cathidaw]

I have a feeling- that if we came 'out' this country would become Great again.

We are losing our Britishness.
People come here from other countries to live -why ? Because they want a better life.But- they don't want to live by the rules of our country.They come with 'conditions'. It's time to say if foreigners want to live here they should reside as we do and uphold the rules as we do. I rather like multiculturals coming here but this is Britain and want to keep it that way. If they want to have the same rules as their birth country they should stay there. and not try to change ours. Being in the E U allows newcomers to bleat about their 'rights' in OUR country Since the '50s we have accepted all races which has benefited us in lots of ways.
The only good thing Cameron has done was to not allow an unlimited amount of immigrants here. Otherwise we'd be like Lesbos.

[rebbonk]

I'm not sure I'd bank on that changing Cathidaw. The left wing, tree hugging, blue rinsed, yellow bellied, lilly livered muppets that exist now will still be here. Despite claims that the Tories are right wing, I'd suggest that they actually lean to the left.

A real right wing UK government would give the UK a true wake up call.

[cathidaw]

Do you believe we'll ever get a right wing government? Too many cuckoos.
I'm waiting for a miracle, aren't I.

[rebbonk]

Looking at the politicians we have, who could actually be called right wing and possibly form a government?

Duncan-Smith springs to mind, but I suspect he's got little credibility left.

Gove, maybe?

Possibly a few of the more junior female MPs trying to ape Maggie?

Somehow I don't think we'll see a real right wing government in my time. To be truthful, I think that we're about as right wing as we're going to get right now; and to me, we're still leaning left of centre.

[Lex]

A public debate's being held in Rugby next week - a good opportunity to air your views: http://www.rugbyadvertiser.co.uk/news/local-news/rugby-mp-to-chair-eu-referendum-debate-in-town-1-7307020

[rebbonk]

That is one of the most sensible ideas I've seen to-date. I only hope that both sides will not play the scare tactics that we're seeing in the mainstream media, but will show reasoned views backed up with data where possible.

I'd suggest that will be an interesting evening.

[Lex]

The IMF's warned against the UK leaving the EU, but there's 1 or 2 advantages to leaving: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36024492

[rebbonk]

There is no doubt that leaving is venturing into the unknown. Nobody actually knows what will happen. But so far all I'm seeing are scare stories with very little foundation when you look at things below the surface. That BBC article uses the word 'could', they don't know for a fact.

I'll offer up one scare story of my own though. If we agree to stay, (I'll bet) the EU will force recent immigrants that they don't want on us. And (I'll bet) it'll happen within weeks of us agreeing to stay. They'll do this to punish us for having the audacity to push for the referendum. And that won't be the only way they'll spitefully get back at us, but it'll (likely) be the first shot.

[Lex]

I'm starting to lean towards leaving; partly because of immigration, and partly because the EU seems to be slowly trundling to breaking point due to ongoing economic issues, and political issues (including immigration) festering in the background.
A lot of people are disillusioned with the EU, and there are a lot of bodged agreements and compromises only just holding the whole thing together.

[rebbonk]

Oops, something has just hit the fan...




A GROUP which has campaigned for the UK to vote to leave the European Union has said it will launch a legal challenge that could result in the referendum being put back until October 23.

Leave.EU, the organisation headed by Aaron Banks, has said it will apply for a judicial review of the Electoral Commission's decision to award lead campaign status to its rival, Vote Leave.

The decision means that Vote Leave, along with the remain campaign Britain Stronger in Europe, will be allowed to spend up to £7m on campaigning, receive a free distribution of information to voters and be able to make referendum campaign broadcasts.

If Leave.EU is successful in obtaining a judicial review of the Electoral Commission's decision, the referendum could be pushed back to October, to enable a 10-week campaigning period.

Mr Banks said: “It is to be regretted that this process may put the referendum back until October but if we are to avoid the most important vote of our lives being rigged then I feel duty bound to take this course of action.”

He is taking legal action because he believes there were "a number of judgements according to the Electoral Commission’s own criteria that do not make sense".

Mr Banks added: "The tweeting by Steve Bell, the Chairman of the Conservative Party Convention, that Vote Leave had been given the designation the night before of the official announcement smells of political corruption from our high-minded establishment and cannot be allowed to pass without challenge."


source:business deskl (http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/westmidlands/news/733641-legal-challenge-could-delay-eu-referendum-vote-for-months.html)

[Lex]

The polls show things are still very close between the In & Out camps: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36271589

[Lex]

A couple of articles on what the referendum's all about:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36027205

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32810887

[Lex]

Your last chance to register for the referendum: http://www.warwickcourier.co.uk/news/local-news/deadline-to-register-to-vote-in-eu-referendum-1-7416939

[rebbonk]

Interesting article you raise there Lex.

Many EU citizens that are not eligible to vote have already received polling cards (and postal votes). Obviously they will want to vote IN. - Now, we are 'assured' that the mistake has been identified and these people will not be allowed to vote. Do you believe this: I know I don't, especially with the vote looking to swing to OUT.

Every 'mistake' made so far has erred on the side of the IN campaign. This never was going to be an open and fair vote. Even if we do vote OUT I expect the terms that we 'leave' on will not be particularly good ones. Various MPs have already hinted that they will do their very best to destroy any victory that the OUT camp may make. Maybe we ought bring back capital punishment for MPs that commit 'treason'? - Silk rope obviously.

[Lex]

I must admit, a few bells started ringing when the articles reminding people to register to vote a mere day before registration closed, but I just put it down to incompetence. But with what you say Rebbonk, I'm not so sure now.

[Lex]

36 or so hours to; has everyone decided which way to vote yet?

[rebbonk]

Whichever way we vote we're stuffed. But I'm voting OUT.

[Lex]

Same here Rebbonk!

[Lex]

The polls close soon, and we'll know the result in less than 12 hours!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36602702

[rebbonk]

OUT!

And a bonus, CAMORON to go!

Roll on the autumn, and lets start things rolling properly for this great country of ours

[Lex]

Yes, it'll be interesting to see how this develops. As far as I can tell, no-one's actually planned for the eventuality of the 'Out' vote. This could explain why the government doesn't want to start exit negotiations until October - nobody's thought about what kind of deal the UK should have :rolleyes:

The big downside of 'Call Me Dave' going, is that we could well get Boris instead.

[Lex]

We've discussed this on another thread somewhere; this is another reason why people got fed up with the EU.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36640963

[Lex]

Hell, just realised that I'm already talking about the EU in the past tense.

[rebbonk]

The EU is history. I predict that the whole shebang will come tumbling down within the next 5 years as more countries elect to leave.

Sadly, the Eurocrats haven't yet worked out that it is their telling everyone what's good for them has caused the issue.

I also (sadly) predict another European war within the next 10-15 years. - And I put the blame for that squarely on Merkel's shoulders.

[Lex]

The response for ex-EU money for the local NHS seems to be 'unlikely': http://www.stratford-herald.com/55444-mp-answers-lib-dem-taunt-on-post-brexit-nhs-funding.html

[rebbonk]

Until the dust settles and we see exactly what terms we will leave under the argument is farcical. BUT, I can't see Theresa May supporting the NHS any more than is absolutely necessary.

[Lex]

Not until the next election, anyway. ;)

[Lex]

Well, my day to day life hasn't changed since the vote, but I know 1 or 2 business owners who are dropping European suppliers due to the pound's value making imports more expensive.

[rebbonk]

When I worked for a certain large motor manufacturer, we would purchase currency a long way in advance to iron out the blips caused by short-term events.

When I did my MBA, we did a consultancy project on a local company that imported a lot of electrical equipment. They were incredibly interested in learning more about this technique. I think we helped them save quite a lot of money once they became more insulated from market 'blips'. - I've just checked: up to 2013 they were doing very well, it looks like a change of ownership in 2013 has changed their strategies and fortunes.

[Lex]

The government's already putting feelers out for trade deals: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36877573

[Lex]

Countries seem to be queuing up to do deals with the UK: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-36888838

[rebbonk]

This is good, and is what many predicted would happen. I think the EU will start worrying that they'll lose us as a market if they don't become rather more flexible. I have a feeling that at some point before we break from them, they'll offer a deal that doesn't involve unfettered movement of people.

[Lex]

This guy's been appointed as the head negotiator for the European Council (apparently, the Commission may have other ideas), is reputed to be an arch-federalist, and didn't take kindly to the Brexit vote (plus he's French!): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36901875

[rebbonk]

Ah, the old antagonism between us and the French. We've saved their skins in two world wars and still they hate us. I taught in France (amongst other countries) and it was the only place where I had any trouble at all. They were told that the course would be run in English, they were told the rules for the exams... They ignored everything that they could and tried to do it their way. Sadly, they lost another war there, I wasn't giving in. ;)

[Lex]

Apparently, the Brexit negotiations will start in February. I'll believe it when they start: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37394808

[rebbonk]

I did read somewhere that if we hadn't started negotiations by April 2017 that different exit rules would apply. The sooner May triggers article 50 the better.

[Lex]

Yes, I read a similar thing. I was also reading in he paper today that the European Commission aren't going to make things easy for the UK out of sheer spite for us having the audacity of making the wrong decision.

[Lex]

We now have a rough idea of when the negotiations are going to start: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37532364

[rebbonk]

I think we are in for an interesting few months.

[Lex]

A lot of people (the Daily Mail call them the Notting Hill Set) are still demanding a second referendum, so 'the idiot on the street' can get it right. Right or wrong, the decision's been made, and as you say Rebbonk, it's going to be interesting, and we're all going to have to live with what happens.

[Lex]

UKIP seems to becoming more & more of a mess by the day: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37558485

[rebbonk]

Sadly, I think that without Farage UKIP is finished. It's his personality, his views and his drive that has taken it to where it is today.

[Lex]

Yes, they do seem to be a spent force now. I wonder if another party will arise to fill the gap left by UKIP.

[Lex]

Nicola Sturgeon's playing fantasy politics again, wanting Scotland to stay in the Single Market, even if the rest of the UK pulls out: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37747995

[rebbonk]

Don't underestimate little Jimmy Krankie, she is dangerous.

[Lex]

An attempt by pro-Eurpoeans to wreck Brexit because the UK "made the wrong decision": http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37886882

[rebbonk]

I think it was always the case that things would need to go before Parliament. But I think people are being a little premature yet. There's another court hearing before May decides on just what she needs to.

I've always said that in my mind it would be one Hell of a job to get us free of the EU, and talks of 'soft brexit' leave me feeling that we might still be betrayed by the enemy within.

I voted out, because I wanted out. All this talk of trade deals is a smokescreen because the EU sells more to us than we sell to it. - Can they really afford to lose such a big market? - Of course they can't, and if it looks like the German car companies might lose out there is going to be Hell to pay. We have a very strong hand, despite what Junker, Hollande, Merkel, etc. might be saying publicly.

[Lex]

Looks like the PM's given in and will reveal the UK's list of wants & will go to Parliament too: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38383216

[cathidaw]

Dare I say this; that Nicola Sturgeon would make a better prime minister than Mother Teresa....too secretive. At least we'd know whats in her mind.

[Lex]

Lord King's thrown his hat in the ring. He's made a couple of good points, I feel: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38421769

[rebbonk]

I don't rate King at all, but as you say he does make a couple of decent points.


King said it was too early to tell what the overall effect on the economy would be, despite data since the referendum result being more positive than many economists predicted.

That is the simple fact. Nobody knows what is going to happen!

[Lex]

The UK's ambassador to the EU has resines. I hope some else is appointed quickly, so they have a chance to settle in before the mud slinging starts: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38498839

[rebbonk]

Why bother? Simply withdraw from the EU. If there are no trade agreements in place it'll be their loss. Plenty of other countries are queuing up to trade with us.

[Lex]

That's a definite possibility, but being British, the government wants to do it properly :rolleyes:

In the meantime, the new ambassador is on his way: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38512901

[Lex]

If Sir Tim is as good as his reputation, we'll be giving the EU as good as we get: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38512901

[cathidaw]

I'd like to think Sir Tim is as strong minded as the impression he gives.
Teresa May is deliberately dragging her feet. She should never been allowed to be P.M. Only this country would put a remainer in power as P,M. AFTER WE VOTED TO LEAVE. Even if it was a close vote it was a vote.
'They' knew what they were doing when she was elected .She was part of the conspiracy to slow it down and mess it all up.. No-one believes she could possibly want in her heart, to get us out.
.
I

[Lex]

A guide to Brexit: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32810887

[rebbonk]

The real reason why the EU are rather upset at us wanting to leave their little club. Paradoxically, it gives us an even stronger hand for our forthcoming 'negotiations'.

https://i1.wp.com/order-order.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/eu-%C2%A3250-miillion.png?w=540&ssl=1

[Finebyme]

Can the UK Courts overuse the Brexit vote?

[rebbonk]

The Brexit referendum was not legally binding, it was only an expression of our wishes. It is up to the government and Parliament to act (or not) on our wishes.

My understanding is that the courts are only there to ensure that whatever actions the government take are done legally.

[Finebyme]

Oh yes, I know it is not legally binding, but the Government can also choose to take action on the will of the people in a referendum, I just hope we will go through with it, I don't think people understand why it is taking so long.

[rebbonk]

I said all along it would be one heck of a game for us to rid ourselves of the EU.

I don't believe we've helped ourselves by employing a remainer as PM. - Deliberate 'establishment' meddling?

As far as I can see, all this talk about hard and soft brexit is just a smokescreen. The people gave their view, they wanted out and that meant totally out. I believe what we're seeing is a deliberate attempt to subvert the will of the people in such a way that they don't realise they've been shafted.

[Lex]

NZ is lining up for a trade deal with the UK as well. The only possible snag is the lack of British negotiators specialising in this area: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38608716

[Lex]

The British ex-EU ambassador may not be far wrong when he said it might take 10 years to sort out the UK-EU relationship; once the negotiations have been completed (which are going to be a nightmare in themselves), the deal will have to be ratified by the EU - which will involve 27 nations haggling for months: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38613027

[rebbonk]

I don't see it that way Lex. After the 2 years the deal is on the table. We take it or leave it. If we walk away we're free of the interfering EU. All this talk about extended negotiations is a backdoor way of keeping us (and our money) tied to the EU.

Should we simply walk away (as we could/should do) Merkel will sh*t herself. She can't afford to lose the motor industry trade with us, never mind the rest. We have a strong hand that the limp-wristed remainers are trying to detract from.

[cathidaw]

The Brexit referendum was not legally binding, it was only an expression of our wishes. It is up to the government and Parliament to act (or not) on our wishes.

My understanding is that the courts are only there to ensure that whatever actions the government take are done legally.

I don't believe many people knew the vote was not legally binding, or they wouldn't have voted. It was a very expensive conspiracy by those who did know.
.. It has messed up the country even more and God knows it was bad enough. No-one knows from one day to the next what is happening, and May's mind games have made it worse.

[rebbonk]

A referendum is democracy in it's rawest form. Whilst it may not be legally binding, it would be a brave government to go against the will of the people. However, as you can see they are wriggling (brexit lite) so they can say they did what the people wanted. Ironically, all these shenanigans are what's costing the country at the moment, not the fact that the people expressed the view that the EU can get stuffed.

The referendum was clear enough for a blind man to see. IN or OUT. - We voted out, and that means totally out. All these 'negotiations' are nothing more than a smokescreen to cover the fact that those in power wanted to remain, and are doing their damnest to do so via the backdoor.

[Lex]

The PM's finally set her wears out: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38641208

[rebbonk]

There are still those that will try to subvert the will of the people.

[cathidaw]

I agree. Listening to May today makes me almost believe what she is saying.I think she now has realized which side her bread is buttered.If she gets it wrong and goes against the majority who voted out however small it was her career will be in jeopardy.
She has taken all this time to find the right words for her plan, so maybe she is not so weak as I thought

[Lex]

The spanner-in-the-works lot have got their way; hopefully the Bill will be pushed through Parliament quickly, and the government can get on with planning & negotiating Brexit: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38720320

[rebbonk]

This was always going to be the case, and the government knew it. Camoron could have prevented it with his referendum bill, but chose not to as the muppet thought he'd win.

Little has changed, but I'm still of the opinion that there are those among the establishment that will try to subvert the public's will and have us remain with the undemocratic and expensive white elephant that is the EU. - Under whatever guise!

[Finebyme]

https://youtu.be/coZAXA9_laA

She certainly is a feisty and very intelligent, head-screwed-on-right kind of person!

[rebbonk]

Blair joining the Remainers is a gift to the Brexiteers. The man really doesn't seem to understand just how much he's despised and distrusted. AND, he's openly showing contempt for democracy. - We voted to leave! But then again, he never was one much for democracy!

[Lex]

Jean-Claude Juncker doesn't seem as hostile as some. Getting the agreement of the national & regional parliamenst will be a major hassle. I'm starting to think we should just default to WTO rules & take things from there: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39042876

[rebbonk]

That is a reasonable stance Lex. As I've said before it's all smoke and mirrors. Simply walk away and the 27 countries will be falling over themselves to seek a deal with the UK. Bottom line here is that they can't afford not to!

[Finebyme]

Moggy sticking up for the wisdom of the British people.



https://youtu.be/MEZK6dnib3U

[Finebyme]

So the big day for signing us OUT is on Tues 14th March. !


Or maybe not! :confused:

[Lex]

Well, here we go: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39325561

[rebbonk]

An interesting few months ahead, I think!

[Lex]

Definitely; I hope Theresa's more of a Maggie than a Tony.

[Lex]

No going back now: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39431428

[Lex]

THings are certainly starting to happen: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39439554

[Lex]

Spain's got a damn cheek: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39465631

And the Brexmoaners & rest of the EU can't understand why we want out.

[rebbonk]

This may well backfire on Spain. They aren't exactly in the strongest of financial positions and rely heavily on tourism etc. from the UK. Any future sanctions may well hurt them far beyond what this little 'protest' is worth.

[cathidaw]

Regarding our Teresa.Being a remainer she is surely the wrong person to be 'caring' for us in this issue.It is also time the ones in government who voted to stay-just shut up. They spread gloom every time they open their mouths.If they cannot accept the public vote in the referendum, they should go, and stop stirring up trouble.
Saying they are voicing the needs of the remainers-who cares- it was a fair vote. Putting a spoke in the wheels of the brexit operation to 'prove' that they were right puts peoples backs up. They seem to be saying, Lets keep having a referendum, 'til we get it right. I wouldn't like to toss a coin with any of them--I'd be there all day.
To Ken Clark and his cronies- please go and take your sourness with you.
.

[Lex]

Hold onto your hats: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40293260

[Finebyme]

Corbyn is getting out of his tree, leading a revolution now. The man is quite insane!

[Lex]

I've just seen what he's doing! Jeremy Corbyn is taking us back to a time before we joined the European Community, to prevent us signing up in the first place! And Steven Hawking said it couldn't be done.

[Lex]

1 commentator doesn't have much faith in the UK's negotiators: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40846830

[rebbonk]

Whilst I might be inclined to agree with him, let's not forget he was a fanatical remainer. - The BBC aren't always totally honest and impartial.

[Lex]

That seems to have been the case with the BBC for some years now; I've gradually started moving to other news providers.

Things aren't going too smoothly this side of the Channel either: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-40868557

[Lex]

'The UK's alternative proposal - a more efficient system of border checks - would involve "an increase in administration", it admits.'

A more efficient system that's more bureaucratic at the same time. Nice trick.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40922177

[rebbonk]

They were discussing using technology on a programme I was watching yesterday. The very idea filled me with dread: government IT systems aren't exactly noted for their efficiencies or for being delivered on time and within budget.

[Lex]

There's also been talk of the 'soft' border between the Republic & Ulster being used as a back door for illegal immigration. Took 'em a while to spot what was obvious to everyone else didn't it?

[Lex]

People will probably be able to fiddle the government's proposed new tariff/border controls quite easily as well (take note as well, Ms Sturgeon!)

[Lex]

The UK's position is slowly coming into the light: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40997985

[rebbonk]

With the people we have 'negotiating' we're going to get a real bum deal, and not one that will satisfy those of us that voted to leave.

I'm hardening my attitude daily and am becoming more of the mind that we should halt all discussions and simply walk away. The EU needs us far more than we need them.

[Lex]

A bit of a stalemate at the minute. I'd put money on the British delegation blinking 1st: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41127799

[rebbonk]

We're stuffed on any negotiation as any one of the other countries could scupper a deal.

My view is that we ought simply withdraw from negotiations and tell them that we will leave 2 years after we gave them notice. - No further contact.

Withdraw the team from Brussels and deploy them negotiating deals with other countries.

As the final date draws near, the truth will dawn on Brussels. They need us! They'll then be far more amenable as both France and Germany will be facing heavy expenditure to replace us, coupled with the loss of a significant market.

The UK is in a far stronger position than many (BBC included) seem to realise. We don't need to give in to the bullying EU, we just need to sit it out.

[cathidaw]

We're not going to go anywhere any good with these fools negotiating.I believe both sides of our government should get together and decide between themselves how to go on.
After all, weren't they too, democratically voted in by nearly half of us, and shouldn't they have a say?
Belligerence will get us nowhere, and Teresa's attitude - even if they liked her wouldn't help. Doesn't even know the word 'tact'.
She's blinded by her position. and is the wrong person to be there-she was a remainer and it is clear-whatever she says, she still is. Like a spoilt child she want's HER own way. and is doing her utmost to be awkward.
David Davies is just as bad-all false smiles and as thick skinned as his boss.
This is too big a thing to allow them to continue.

[Lex]

If the EU wants money of the UK for walking out on them, perhaps our shares in the EIB can be signed over to them: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41774817

[Lex]

What a farce. Theresa May cocks up by calling the election & losing the Tories their majority, leaving the government in hock to the DUP, meaning the UK's going to get shafted by the EU & will be left in the cesspit for generations to come.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42225755

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42217735

[rebbonk]

Treason May is without doubt the most useless, inept, PM within living memory; or she's more devious than I gave her credit for.

Surely after this fiasco she must go...?

[Lex]

Comrade Corbyn looks favourite if we have to have another election; the Conservatives only seem to have a bunch of cretins lining up behind the current PM.

[rebbonk]

Whilst I'm willing to admit my earlier thoughts about Corbyn have been proven to be incorrect, I just don't see a credible Labour party coming to the fore.

This country has a very poor choice when it comes to politicians and until more people get involved and rout the dross, things aren't going to change.

Of the 650 MPs we have, the vast majority are simply unemployable outside the walls of Westminster.

[Finebyme]

My thoughts exactly Rebbonk, depressing as it is.

[Lex]

A deal's been reached on this stage, but there's still a good chance it can get scuppered: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42277040

[rebbonk]

From my understanding, we've been sold down the river. We're to be fully 'aligned' to the EU but not in it.

I only hope that the whole rotten lot comes tumbling down, and I wish lots of very unpleasant things happen to Treason May.

[Lex]

To me, all this palaver over the Eire/Ulster border sounds like an attempt at the 1st step towards reuniting the 2 parts of Ireland: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43277181

[rebbonk]

I wondered that from the beginning Lex. I can't see it happening though. But what I can see happening is Eire pulling out of the EU. That would end the problem.

I was working in Belfast at the time Eire was contemplating joining the Euro. They were telling me that if Eire did adopt the Euro many would move across the border to NI because everything would be so much cheaper. - I don't know how many did move.

[Lex]

I can't see the government agreeing to a completely open border, mostly because the Unionists would dump them right in the cesspit.

[Lex]

Good to see some progress being made: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43456502

[Lex]

What a shambles; the Government should just throw the towel in & give up the way things are going - the UK's going to get a terrible deal: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44770847

[rebbonk]

I saw Redwood and another MP on TV today. They both said roughly the same thing. Stop all negotiations now and tell the EU that we're leaving on WTO terms and will pay up only our legal obligations. Of course, the EU are then cordially invited to make a deal with us...

Everyone knows exactly where they stand and the EU can sort itself out filling the financial black-hole that we leave behind.

Another point well made was that all the bleating big businesses have very strong links back to Germany, so it's hardly surprising they lean that way.

[Lex]

Another crisis in the offing. And people think we should think we should stay in the EU: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48258720

[rebbonk]

I think the Germans have a word for this... schadenfreude :) :) :)

[margaret]

https://media.giphy.com/media/SzrFfExJj4Eb6/giphy.gif


Can Boris do it?

[rebbonk]

I truly dread Boris becoming PM. The man's a complete clown and buffoon: we need a statesman to repair the damage that May has done to our world standing.