For Gladys ... Wheyms-Dalrimple

[Gladys]

NZ? That's where my Mum comes from. She's a 4th generation NZ'er. Her Mum's ?Uncle or great 'unc' was Te Rauparaha, not sure which. We've been trying to find all this out cos her own Mum didn't talk about it back then. (My Mum is 88 now and her memory of those days in the 1920s is faded)

[Shizara]

Gladys> Te Rauparaha is wellknown in Maori history.

There are some very good Maori family history records. I lived in the far North of NZ and all of the Maori families I knew had a very good knowledge of their history.

Here is Te Rauparaha's ancestry:

Ng�ti Raukawa - Raukawa genealogy - Te Ara Encyclopedia of New Zealand (http://www.teara.govt.nz/NewZealanders/MaoriNewZealanders/NgatiRaukawa/2/ENZ-Resources/Standard/1/en)

[Gladys]

Dear Shizara, What did you do in NZ? I'm so grateful for this. I have friends who are doing geneology searches for me except they have been on a 3 month world cruise up until today. My Mum's Granny,( Her Father's rellie- the reason why she didn't acknowledge or wasn't allowed to acknowledge her birth Mother's origions. Her Mum had a Maori name but she never knew it though her older siblings did. They were 9, 12 and 14 years her senior) we think, her G'Mother was Lady Agnes Sohia Wheyms-Dalrimple(Spelling a bit wrong) who at 4 years old came out to NZ on the first ships aged 4 yrs. Her Father or G'Father was the 3rd Earl Wheyms-Dalrimple. Anyway, My Mum always talks about when she could first remember at 4 herself at Granny's place. The Chauffeur would get the Rolls out and her Nanny would dress her and she'd spend the day at the races watching Granny's horses running. (We're talking 1924) Otherwise Granny was in bed and the land was managed by her 'other' uncles and her Dad who ran the sheep. Her Family seem to have been well placed but what I can't seem to find is the records for them.

[Shizara]

We can continue discussions in this thread. I think it important that each search have its own identity.

[Shizara]

Oooh... Am on a roll now as i think I have cracked it so to speak... Updates later.

[Shizara]

Progressing well now.. have taken one line back quite a few generations.. Wahey!

[Shizara]

A few spelling discrepancies - but that isn't unusual. Have been able to follow the line to find the Te Rauparaha connection and getting near to sorting the Dalrymple line. Time for sleep now though.

[Gladys]

Dear Shizara, I am gobsmacked. Thank you. My Mum is slowly digesting the Te Rauparaha info. I think it has unlocked some memories for her.:clapping:

[Shizara]

Awww... Hopefully, she will relay those memories to you.. Do note them down because they are memories to be treasured.

Memories can become cloudy with time, however, little reminders can freshen them again.

[Shizara]

A thought.. Once I finally get the Earl Dalrymple bit sorted ... We can go on with your Dad's side and see what we can find, though.. a caution... I have found from researching and seeking my friend's Canadian Serviceman's Dad from WW2 it probably won't be the breeze this has been and I won't know what we can achieve until I put together what I have and anything you or your Mum can remember. In the meantime.. I need to finalise the Earl's connection.

[Gladys]

Dear Shizara, Thanks so much. The Earl we think is the 3rd Earl of Strathclyde which my 'Round the world cruisers' say links to Mary Queen of Scotts- Don't know how but think this is where Agnes Sofia comes in.
Anyway, The Canadian connection came in because my Mum married my Dad (George Charles Richard Barefoot born in Dover , Kent Uk, ?8th or 9th September 1925- I don't know because he died aged 48 in 1973 on ?17th,18th or 19th November when I was 13 years old and away at Boarding school) and he was half Canadian. His Dad was Leutenant Colonel George ?? Barefoot (His Father was Surgeon Colonel Barefoot- apparently) Lt Clnl Barefoot married Dorothy Winter- what is more there is Blackfoot Indian blood there - apparently!!!She was my Grandmother and she died in 1987/1988 at the age of ?95. Her Sister ran a fur trapping station in the lakes of Ontario in Canada and the BBC did a documentary of it. She was 102 then. There were reported to be 11 children of that family. My Canadian Grandmother was a Sister of the Royal Canadian Nursing Corps, Her Sister, Constance was the Matron of the field hospitalof the Battle of the Somme for the RCANC. (I'll think of more but have work tomorrow) :clapping:

[Shizara]

Filling in the blank spaces. Wonder if I will find the Indian blood connection. Finding the Maori side wasn't so bad because I know which avenues to search.

Your family has quite a lot of background that will make interesting reading as I am making notepad notes of these things as I go.

[Gladys]

Hello, Shizara, Thanks again for all of this. The Winter line are said to have a Blackfoot Indian connnection but I have absolutely no idea other than it is meant to exist. Does any one know about them? The Agnes Sofia Wheyms-Dalrimple connection has thrown a q or 2. Mum says she is reported to have gone to NZ with her ?Father Sir or "nd Baronette Wheyms-Dalrimple- I haven't seen him mentioned in NZ despatches) aged 4 but there has never been any mention of her Mother ever!!! This was Mum's point. That Great Granny wasn't mentioned. (Peeps went to the Other World' when there was scandal. I suspect a skeleton. If anyone knows of any history on the Migration of UK peeps in 1830 onwards, please get in touch.:clapping:Its getting exciting.:p

[Shizara]

Hunting down the ancestors is always exciting. I have also found that excitement reigns when you find the answer to a riddle or prove a family tale to be true or near to true .. but somehow another bunch of questions come out of it.

Your tree is coming along rather well.

[Gladys]

Shizara, How clever are you, I really am amazed. Agnes Sofia- reportedly Lady Agnes Sofia is still holding a mystery card. Why would her Father; the 3rd Baronette go to NZ alone with a 4 year old child on the 1st Ships? There has to be a skeleton. No Mother mentioned or with them. It is something my Mum has always pondered about especially as she was an elderly 'trout' with attitude when my Mum was only 4 or 5 yrs old! :clapping:(There was always a nanny though) :p

[Shizara]

Grins.. I will leave no stone that I find unturned. I don't promise the the sun the moon and the stars, just let's see what fortune and search turn up for us. - Trumps hopefully! - Giggles

[Gladys]

I don't suppose there's a country pile lurking beneath those stones? :D:clapping:
More like the cow jumped over the moon and the rest is history :)

[Shizara]

Well, either the Dalrymple men fancied women by the name of Sarah Thompson or there is a skeleton banging away in the wardrobe - unless it has a back exit to Narnia..

As you already know, your Agnes Sophia Weymss Dalrymple, Christened 1851, North Leith, Midlothian, Scotland, is the daugter of William Dalrymple and Sarah Thompson. I also have here Emily Eliza Dalrymple, Christened 1853, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland as the daughter of George Samuel Weymss Dalrymple and Sarah Thompson.

... and the little dog laughed as the dish ran off with the spoon to Narnia. :p

[Gladys]

Oh I knew it and so does Mum suspect. Who though is Sarah Thompson- the house or parlour maid? George Samuel - was he the Father or Brother of William? The skeleton must soon emerge. What transpired of Emily Eliza? Great guns- go for it. I spent hours today trawlling through Scotts geneology stuff and got stuff all. Thank you again. Bring it on and let us see. :clapping:

I believe there are 3 or so skeletons emerging.Where did the Wheyms bit come in? The worrying thing is I married a Thompson; he's the Father of my children!!!!

[Shizara]

Did I miss telling you what I feel to be the Wemyss bit? Crikey. Well, I think it goes back a couple of generations beyond your Agnes Sophia Weymss Dalrymple, perhaps to her grandmother, I find a Weymss Dalrymple and with a name as unusual as Weymss this surely has to be the connection. But bear with me, am still piecing this bit together.

I found this too.. Travelling to Hokitika in 1871 - so suspect they may have been abroad at some point I find...

HOKITIKA (12 Aug 1871)
Dalrymple Mr
Dalrymple Miss Agnes
Dalrymple Miss Emily

So you would suspect there was a connection of some sort between the two girls.

[Gladys]

Shizara- your sources are so good. Hokitika is where my Mum's Father was born - The Hankins connection. The net draws in :)

[Shizara]

Currently putting together another Dalrymple family from NZ ... The plan being to see if I can link them to yours..

[Gladys]

Shizara, I gave my Mum the latest it unlocked more. She does remember talk of Great Aunt Emily who was relegated to 'spinster'. She also said Grannie- Agnes Sofia had a 'meeting' with Southerly Baker and bore 2 children- she had 7 in total. Aunt 'Nell' was one of those children from SB.SB was apparently 'somebody' in Palmerstone North. Maybe the other Dalrymples you have found are Emily's. :clapping: I still want to know who Sarah Thompson was- that is intreagueing :D

[Shizara]

This is wonderful. I am so glad your mother is able to unlock information with the provision of some details. It tells me I am on the right track.

Am spreading the net on the mysterious Sarah Thompson, in fact have found the name connected to yet another Dalrymple man. :rolleyes:

Have sent off a few emails too so, you never know, something may come of those, though I depend more on my own researching than email responses. That way you don't get disappointed if they don't email back and if they do it's a bonus.

[Shizara]

Hmm... Southerly Baker.. Any chance the "Southerly" could be a knickname?

[Shizara]

The plot thickens...

I have a gut feeling that the name is Southey Baker ... and possibly there is another name in front of that...

[Gladys]

Shizara, I checked more than twice with Mum about 'Southerly' Baker , saying what a strange name, asking her,is it his actual or a 'nickname'. She was quite adamant that was his real name but again you never know. She was only 4,5,6 or 7 and would have been listening to adults. Again, may have to think sideways- he was in Palmerston North- sideways to Wellington and to Auckland!!! :) Sarah Thompson's name I have seen Thompsons on a list for the Dalrymple Parish register- just a hunch . I saw it before you mentioned her- a few Thompsons. Anyway. Bring it all on :clapping:

[Shizara]

Elizabeth Hankins and daughters June and Gwynnedd?

[Gladys]

Hello Shizara, Southey Baker may well be it. I'll check again tomorrow. Aunt Nell- Elizabeth used to 'do' for Agnes arriving on her bike. The girls were privately educated paid for ny Granny and both may have had a degree of deafness as they had a speech impediment. :clapping:

[Shizara]

Soo... "Aunt Nell" is Elizabeth Hankins?

[Shizara]

I could be wrong but I *think* Southey Baker who was "somebody" in Palmerston North may well be Arthur Southey Baker who had a son with Ani Mere Pohio (Matenga Winara Southey Baker) before she married Ngai Tahu chief Teone Pohio of Tuahiwi.

I found this person carrying off the highest honours with his polo ponies at an A & P show.

He married Rachael Blanche Lloyd at Fielding in 1889.

The other one is Thomas Southey Baker, born 1848, BA - took his degree in 1871. He was the Manager of the Boarding House, Otago Boys' High School.

I also note a Miss Dalrymple connected with the Girls' High School of Otago:

..... an oil painting of the late Sir John Richardson, another of Miss Dalrymple (who was secretary of the committee formed in 1870 to establish the school)

Then, there is Eleanor Southey Baker who was born at French Farm, Akaroa, New Zealand, on 13 September 1879. She was the eldest of four daughters of Thomas Southey Baker, a stock owner, and his wife, Josephine Harriet Anne Dicken.

Of course, equally, there may well be no connection with either of these men and it could well be another, though the names are coincidentally very similar.

[Gladys]

Shizara, I think you are on a roll. There's much about what you have found that rings bells. I will print this off and give it Mum. She's been thinking back and she says Agnes Sofia had a Family plot in 'All saints' Church Palmerston North. That's where they are all buried. They had a family pew at the front of the church. Aunt Nell does seem to be Elizabeth> What happened to Emily though? Also what about Sarah Thompson? I still want to know. And why was there the William Dalrymple and then the George Samuel Wheymss-Dalrymple? Just aside from this as it is an unusual name. (Guy's sister works at the bank in Sandhurst. She says a Mrs Dalrymple-Hamilton used to come in- are they connected? Hampshire- Liphook/Hazlemere people.) You are amazing being able to find all of this out. Guy's nephew is in NZ now in Wellington. Do you think there's anything we could 'task' him with?
:clapping:

[Shizara]

I am quite sure we can task him with something.. Tracking the family plot and its inhabitants...

I think I mentioned earlier that with family research you might find the answer to something and it opens up more questions.. which, is part of the fun. It is rather like a treasure hunt.

[Gladys]

Shizara, I've given the Southey Baker info to Mum- I left her giggling :) I've emailed both our nephew and the Vicar of All Saints In Palmerston North. It really is exciting. :clapping: Any more on Sarah Thompson or Emily?

[Shizara]

Giggles... I am so glad you are enjoying this because I certainly am and I am not even related to this family of - shall we say - interest!

Doing a little on the Sarah Thompson and Emily bit this morning before I go out.

[Gladys]

Hello Shizara, Yes Mum has been giggling alot because its both unlocking memories of people, events and situations that she'd always wondered about ,suspected but didn't dare ask. You have to cast your thoughts back to Edwardian values of 'don't mention the war..' type of attitude except the war in this case were the very many skeletons it seems they'd wrapped away. Mum being a young child was not privy to any of it except the whisperings and knowing looks that told her there was something she was excluded from. Her granny (Agnes Sophia)was seemingly unapproachable in her elderly years, the chaufuer getting the car out and the nanny dressing Mum for presentation. Granny then being wheeled out for the races to watch her horses run and then returning to her bed chamber. What a way to exist! :clapping: I spent ages yesterday trying to look at North Leith records but I only achieved frustration. Thank you again. I'm glad you are enjoying this, we definitely are.:)

[Shizara]

Oooh... Have found the burial places for Agnes Sophia Hankins nee Dalrymple and some of the clan. As soon as I collate the info will give it to you.

[Shizara]

Found a load of Baker names in the same cemetery. Amongst them there may well be a clue..

BAKER, BERNARD WEMYESS - A child, but no age given when he died.

On the other side of the world it seems unlikely to me that the Wemyess (another spelling) name would be a random choice.

No sign yet of Emily Eliza Dalrymple or Sarah Thompson.

[Shizara]

A mini update. Have found another record and it is looking more like the parents of Agnes and Emily are the same:

George Samuel Weymss Dalrymple and Sarah Thompson

So I don't think the skeletons are banging around on that one, but very likely with the Southey Baker connection.

Also, would May Hankin be a name known to your mother?

[Shizara]

George Samuel Wemyss Dalrymple | NZETC (http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/Cyc01Cycl-fig-Cyc01Cycl0961a.html)

Whilst I have saved a copy of the picture, this is the url that I found it on. If you don't know how to save it then right click on the picture choose Save As or Save Image As .. give it a name and save it somewhere.

[Gladys]

Dear Shizara,
You are a truely brilliant researcher. Yes, May Hankins was Mummy's Aunt. She married her Uncle 'Budge' Fitzherbert- that's another line of great interest- QC, Barristers apparantley. I've save the picture and copied it so will show it to Mum tomorrow. I am so excited because the All Saints Church people have replied to say its not their church but may be the one at Foxton. You may recall her Great Grandfather was known as the 'Father of Foxton'- lets see what comes through next.:)

[Shizara]

Mr. William Lockhart Fitzherbert, Partner of the firm of Napier and Fitzherbert.

While residing at Levin he married the eldest daughter of Mr. T. Herbert Hankins, solicitor, of Palmerston North.

My Note: Think that should be Mr J. Herbert Hankins

I have some info on the deaths of both William Fitzherbert and his wife May but will post them for you tomorrow. Need to go to bed now.

[Gladys]

Dear Shizara,
I hope sleep found you on this wet Monday. I have found the grave- its in Terrace End cemetary Palmerston North, block 008 plot 35. It seems to contain the remains of Agnes Sophia, John Herbert Hankins, Daughter Elizabeth; 'Aunt Nell' and her two daughters June and Gwynnedd. It seems from the photo of it that Gwynnedd only died in what looks like 22/06/2004. I wonder if she has offspring or her sister has? If so there may be more living rellies!!! :clapping:

[Shizara]

Grins.... I saved the photos of the plot and the other details was tired this morning so you didn't get those extra bits.. Sorry!

[Gladys]

Shizara-- great moves on the horizon. The 'Elizabeth' in the plot is not 'Aunt Nell' they are 2 different peeps. Elizabeth was married to Mum's Dad's Brother. Her Uncle Claude.They had 3 children, June, Gwynnedd and Ian. Elizabeth used to 'do' for Agnes. 10 Linton Street was Elizabeth's home and Agnes retired there to end her days to be looked after. What ever happened to Claude, I do not know. The Cemetary has 8 of them buried;he's not one of them. June and Gwynnedd are listed as Hankins. Mummy has mentioned an oil painting before, now I've given her the grave pics she mentioned it again. Its of general Dalrymple in his scarlet army tunic. She said Ian was meant to have had it but he 'fell' out with Gwynnedd and June, its gone to ground. Gwynnedd is said to have donated to to somewhere- no idea. I can find 2 or 3 General Dalrymples just not sure which one is which. :)

[Shizara]

Scran - General Sir Hew Whitefoord Dalrymple (http://www.scran.ac.uk/database/record.php?usi=000-000-607-283-C)

This him by any chance?

[Shizara]

It would appear that J H Hankins - presumably John Herbert Hankins - was a People's Warden at the Palmerston North All Saints Church.

[Gladys]

Shizara, That is a portrait I haven't seen. I'll get Mum to have a look. I've found one of General Sir Hew Dalrymple on http//www.mmm.ac.uk/collections/prints/viewRepro.cfm?reproID+... This isn't showing as a web address now so I'm puzzled. Its a print so no colour but may be they are the same peeps. Mummy now keeps mentioning (and always has) The Earl of Stairs. I don't know but I still want to know who Sarah Thompson is.She has pulled out an old photo of definite 'old fogues' The earl's lot are in it, I think. Anyway, I'm not yet sure where she has pulled it from but its old.
Meanwhile on The Cook front. I have made contact with a chap who is somehow central to the Foxton community. He and his wife are travelling to the UK tomorrow. He has already circulated my details (Mum's) to the Cook fraternity and hopefully one or two may make contact. He says he will try to visit us when they are here. I think that is just about the most amazing thing about this. The bringing together of people. Louisa Rui was Mummy's Grandmother bron from Meretini and TU Cook. There are 9 other branches of that line out there, they didn't know about us, now they do. It would be great to talk, meet know- you get my drift Its Excellent. Thanks to you :clapping::clapping:

[Shizara]

I have no doubt about your connection with the Earl of Stair, it is a matter of proving the connection which, am sure will happen.

With Sarah being the mother of both of the girls and since finding that George Samuel Weymss Dalrymple is the father of both I suspect they may have been married or partners at least. Am still working on that one.

[Shizara]

Oooh.. Are you ready for this? ... One mystery is nearly sorted.

George Samuel Weymss Dalrymple married Sarah Thompson
28 JAN 1850 Duddingston, Midlothian, Scotland

[Gladys]

Shizara, You're up late too. I've had enough of the UK's swine flu symptoms to sink a battleship. Anyway, I already romantasize (?USA spelling) about Sarah Thompson. What would be good is to know where the Stairs lived and who the Wives were because no Wife or Mother seems to have accompanied them to Hokitika in 1871. What happened to George Samuel Wheymss-Dalrymple? Did he having married his girls off 'suitabley' then return to Scotland and life as the Laird's son???:clapping::D Or was he 'decommissioned' and sent to stay in pastures new. Or maybe he retirned but was equally pensioned off with a farm or some such. What happened to Sarah his wife? I think this is most poignant.Oh goodness, I feel a book and a film coming on. Anyone interested?

[Shizara]

Well, at least we know he married Sarah Thomson :p .... Am sure that we are close to tying things up.. Will do a bit more when I get home later.

[Gladys]

Yes, at least it was all on the 'correct' side of the bedsheets :clapping: Mum will be relieved :p I think this was one of the family fears!!! Except we don't know when Agnes Sophia was born, only when she was christened.Hope you have a good day today.

Duddingston Kirk A famous former minister was the Rev. John Thomson (1778 - 1840) who gave rise to the expression "we're all Jock Tamson's bairns" Now is this a coincidence or what!

[Shizara]

I have some background for you on George Samuel Weymss/Wemyss Dalrymple.

Dalrymple, George Samuel Wemyss, Land and Insurance Agent, Perry Street, Masterton. Bankers, Bank of New South Wales.

Private residence, “The Laurels,” Chapel Street. Mr. Dalrymple is descended from a very ancient Scottish family, and is a second cousin of the present Earl of Stair. He was born in L'Orient, France, in 1828, and received the greater part of his education in that country, and in Belgium, his parents afterwards removing to Scotland. At the age of seventeen Mr. Dalrymple was licensed as a shipbroker in Glasgow by the customs authorities, he being said to have been the youngest official ever appointed to such a position. When only twenty-two he became surveyor of stamps and taxes for the counties of Sutheiland and Caithness, and subsequently for Perch. In 1862 Mr. Dalrymple retired from the service, having inherited a competence. Realising this, he came to New Zealand in the ship “City of Dunedin,” landing at Invercargill in 1863. Gaining mercantile experience there, and on the West Coast of the South Island, where he had a taste of nearly every sort of colonial life until the year 1876, he came to Masterton. He was never afraid “to take his coat off,” and this characteristic has assisted him in his life in the Colony. As a Mason Mr. Dalrymple is a Past Grand Steward of the Grand Lodge of New Zealand. It may be mentioned that Mr. Dalrymple presented the magnificent Grand Jewel worn by the Grand Master of the New Zealand Constitution when in full regalia, and also one in miniature set with rubies to be worn by the Grand Master at balls, &c., for which presents he received a letter of thanks from the Grand Lodge. He is also Past Grand Master of the Manchester Unity Independent Order of Oddfellows, and Past Arch Druid. In volunteer circles he took part in the famous Parihaka expedition, acting in the capacity of colour-sergeant to his company. In addition to his services as a volunteer, Mr. Dalrymple can look back upon a useful career as fire brigade captain, having in 1865 occupied that position in the first fire brigade formed in Invercargill. In 1870 he was lientenant of the Hokitika fire brigade, and six years later in Masterton he acted as captain of the fire brigade, Mr. Dalrymple's genial, hearty manner and native good humour render him popular in the district in which he has spent so considerable a part of his colonial life. He has in his possession a most interesting collection of old family papers and relics.

[Shizara]

I find this all very interesting in view of the information we already have. It's just a matter of tying it all in together.

The ship that carried his children and wife to NZ recorded him as Mr Dalrymple so I think most of the tying up is in adding those things to the equation.

[Gladys]

Oh Sizara, Its getting more like marmalade! Why arrive as 'Mr' when you are ???. I've emailed the Kirk to see if they have any old bits of paper for these peeps. I haven't seen anything of Sarah in the NZ stuff. What happened to them both and to Emily is still a mystery.
On from that, The Revd Thomson at Dunningston may be a coincidence. He had something like 3 daughters and 2 sons by his first wife who died of what was prpbaley a post puerpral infection 2 weeks after delivery of thier last child. He then went on to mary Mrs Dalrymple of Fordel; Widow of Mr Spence. They had another 5 children I think, not sure but thats what I think I read. The Earl of Stair , The weymss's , the Earl of March, they were all patrons of the parish.:)

[Shizara]

Currently we are gathering information, trying to fill in the missing pieces, proving or disproving associations and family lore. I am not feeling phased at all by this and still trying to find further information on Sarah and Emily.

[Gladys]

Shizara, Your resolve is admirable. I still feel its like marmalade at this point. The Kirk secretary has come out with a blank- no records held there other than baptisms post 1948. They are all at The Registry Offices in Edinburgh.:(

[Shizara]

Sorry I have been so quiet... have been really busy at work and catching up with things.. Now .. I have found a bit more on George and Sarah. In 1861 they were boarding in London! Boarding with Robert and Martha Williamson. The transcription is appalling and it was only because I had a liberal and wide net that I spotted it. This is the transcription:

Name: Geo T Wernyol Dalrymple
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: (Br Subd), L'Brient, France

Civil Parish: St Mary Le Bow
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

His wife Sarah:

Name: Sarah Dalrymple
Age: 31
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Female
Where born: Carrickjergua, Ireland

I saved the document that it was transcribed from and have no doubt the correct name should be George S Weymss Dalrymple, that he was a stamp collector or dealer and was born in L'Orient, France.

Sarah's details are also correct.

The mystery here is what are they doing boarding with the Williamson couple and where are the girls?

Am off to bed now, will have another search when I get up.

[Gladys]

Shizara, you are so clever. What a stroke of amazing luck to find this let alone decipher it. How extraordinary and bazaar- where indeed were the girls? Its more like treacle now. The more you find, the more questions that come out of it. I wonder if The Williamsons were no particular connection at all just a convenient lodging place. :)

[Shizara]

Grins... who knows. It's like a treasure hunt full of clues, riddles and enough answers to keep you going. If I can find them in various places over the years then we can create some sort of image of how they lived and maybe find clues out as to why. Of course, it is not wholly improbable that they travelled without the girls sometimes and left them with either other family members or trusted friends.

I have spoken to a NZ friend who lives about 2 hours away and asked him to put feelers out on the name Dalrymple.

Am off to work soon so will do a bit more when I get in tonight.

[Gladys]

Shizara, Life is doing very strange things- its like we are meant to know these things now. My Dear Mum is blown away as tonight A historian and his wife from Foxton flew into the Uk at 6am and this evening I've been with them and my Mum. They booked into our local hotel but they had pre-arranged a UK historical visit! They are very in touch with The Cook side of things from TU Cook and Meretini. My Mum is like alink they never knew and in turn she never really knew how important to NZ history TU Cook was and is. They told me Darymples are very strong wealthy and Equestrian in NZ- Sally Dalrymple a teacher and now Clark was a silver medalist in The Equestrian 3 day eventing for the Olympics.I'm sure that's what they said. They posed that George Samuel having married his daughters off then bore a son?to whom and this may be the line-more treacle!!! Meanwhile, Agnes Sophia bought 3 burial plots, 2 are occupied and 1 is empty. I have the name and address of the lady who received the bill for the most recent interment in 2004 for Mummy's cousin. Don't quite know what to do with it though. Geepers- its glue!:clapping:

[Gladys]

Shizara, I hope work was good for you today. Is this anything? I found it when I looked for Dalrymples in NZ Alexander Dalrymple – New Zealand's debt to a little-known Scot (http://www.findingnz.co.nz/ad/mad1_alexander_dalrymple.htm) There's also Leomonth Dalrymple also from Scotland around the same era. Maybe a whole lot of rellies got the same idea? :) Still would like to know what happened to sarah Thomson and to Emily Eliza. Also why the Weymss- Dalrymples were lodging in London etc- Thick cut marmalade!!!

[Shizara]

I have put a second tree together with another New Zealand Dalrymple line, mostly to keep them together. Thomas and Margaret (nee Little) Dalrymple.

Learmonth White Dalrymple is the daughter of William Dalrymple and his wife Janet (Jessie Taylor) and was baptised in Coupar, Angus, Scotland 21 July 1827. She never married and when she died she was buried with her father.

Sarah and Emily I think are uppermost in your wonderings - giggles - and they are part of my current focus.

I don't think I would be terribly concerned about dates for sailing to NZ because my guess would be that they travelled between and the UK several times.

[Shizara]

Have found a death, in NZ, for George Samuel Weymss Dalrymple and that's a good start. It might provide a few more clues regarding his wife.

[Shizara]

Hmm... Are you sure that Emily Eliza Dalrymple remained a spinster? The reason I ask is that I *think* I have a possible marriage for her. If she was born in 1852/3 then a marriage in 1878 is quite probable.

[Gladys]

Shizara, this very clever stuff you're doing. The Foxton guy told us that there is still a firm of lawyers called Hankins in Palmerston North- I can't find them but I did find one in Auckland. He says he's not one of our Hankins but his Father was asked in 1960s as he wore a family resemblance. Until, my email to him last night he'd thought his was the 1st Hankins firm in NZ- now he's looked back and has found when John Herbert registered to practice. :cool: Incidetally, there's a firm of Fitzherbert Rowe in Palmerston North- they may have links through an elderly Aunt Fitzherbert whose son died without issue. I don't know anyway, more marmalade and meanwhile the search for Emily and George Samuel goes on. Maybe Emily wasn't a spinster. Its just that Mum says she seemed 'absent' so that was what was assumed.:)

[Shizara]

Am going to go with my gut feelings on the marriage. Also, have found someone else that I think is also connected but will give you the details when I get home. Am posting this from my mobile so don't have the details to hand.

[Gladys]

What, more peeps- its exciting because there's a wealth of unknowns that may now come into the light. What a shame for the past that was left so distanced. I look forward to this, I feel yet another 'moment' may not be too far away:)
Just another spanner below
'James Henry Adolph Fitzherbert, was paid by William IV in 1832 to go into exile in America. ' This is from a document about Maria Fitzherbert; wife/wiflet to George 1Vth. Mum has always said she is an Aunt of some sort by marriage. I wonder???(Did he go to America though or did he travel on to NZ?)

[Shizara]

Question time again... Does the name "Daisy" ring any bells with you or your Mum?

You are familiar now with the name George Samuel Wemyss Dalrymple.. I found another name that follows a similar formula... John George Wemyss Dalrymple.. am going to do a bit more fossicking around for that. Maybe Agnes and Emily had a brother.

[Shizara]

Husband's Name
George IV King Of ENGLAND (AFN:9FNG-TH) Pedigree
Born: 12 Aug 1762 Place: St. James Palace, Westminster, Middlesex, England
Christened: 8 Sep 1762 Place: St. James Palace, Westminster, Middlesex, England
Died: 26 Jun 1830 Place: Windsor Castle, Windsor, Berkshire, England
Buried: 15 Jul 1830 Place: St. George Chapel, Windsor, Berkshire, England
Married: 15 Dec 1785 Place: London, , , England
Father: George III William Frederick Hanover King Of ENGLAND (AFN:9FNG-NM) Family
Mother: Sofie Charlotte Princess Of MECKLENBURG STRELITZ (AFN:8F7J-MC)
Wife's Name
Maria Anne FITZHERBERT (AFN:1FSW-CT6) Pedigree
Born: 1756 Place: , , , England
Died: 1837 Place: Brighton, , , England
Buried: Place: St John The Bapt, Brighton, , England
Married: 15 Dec 1785 Place: London, , , England
Father:
Mother:

You might find this interesting - if you haven't already found it:

Fitzherbert Family Genealogy - Maria Anne Fitzherbert Smythe (http://fitzherbertfamily.com/)

[Gladys]

Shizara, The name 'Daisy' rings no bells for me but I will see what Mum says. The Foxton historian;Tony did pose the possibility of a son to Mr Dalrymple though I have no idea where he has got that from. He referred to The Dalrymples suggesting if it's the same family line they have dropped the 'Weymss' bit. As for The Fitzherberts, it would seem unlikely given that there is no mention of them branching onwards to NZ unless the ?Marianne whose life seems not to be documented is a link.There is 'Aunt Kate' Fitzherbert that Mum mentioned whose only son died without issue. She lived in a lavish home now a country club sort of place. William Fitzherbert is the name on 'our' branch but it Still seems doubtful though. I wonder where 'our' Fitzherberts emerged from? Heyho, more marmalade.

[Shizara]

Marmalade - challenge - treasure hunt :p

[Shizara]

I have a bit more on John Herbert Hankins...

W. Bro. John Herbert Hankins A.G.R. Born 13th June 1846 – Died 27th June 1928

Known to be a Mason for at least 14 years in both English and Scottish Constitutions.

Former member of Lodge Westland No 88

Foundation Master of The Manawatu Kilwinning Lodge 1883

John Hankins married Agnes Sophia Wemyss in 1872 and they had four sons and three daughters. He was articled to C.E. Button a barrister and solicitor in Hokitika and was admitted to the bar in 1876. He then came to Foxton to offices opposite Whytes Hotel. He then expanded to Palmerston North in 1881 and founded the firm Fitzherbert Abraham now Fizherbert Rowe which is still in existence today. When the Palmerston North Law Society was formed John was its first president. John was a keen sportsman, one of the founders of the Manawatu Racing Club of which he was President and became a life member. He was also President of the Manawatu Rugby Union and donated the Hankins Shield which is still played for annually.

[Shizara]

Do you have a photo of John Herbert Hankins? - I have one of those now too.

[Gladys]

:clapping:Wow, you've got hotlines into an amazing database. I'm printing this off for Mum. I don't think I've seen a photo of him but there is this 'gathering' of Hankins,Fitzherberts and my Mum is the toddler on some one's lap, it might have been him. If he died in 1928 that would fit.('W. Bro. John Herbert Hankins A.G.R. Born 13th June 1846 – Died 27th June 1928'- Excuse my density but what do the 'W.Bro' and the 'A.G.R.' mean?) Its also a bit spookey because he died on the day that some 69 years later that my Daughter was due and the day some 71 years and 6 months on exactly my son was born. Is there something about the 27th?- life cycle.He was reported to have come from herefordshire- not sure where though etc.
I saw the Fitzherbert Rowe firm and wonder if there's an actual Fitzherbert practicing, if there is, that will be a family member of whom we don't know. Otherwise, they are just using the old firm's name.
I asked Mum about the name 'Daisy' and it drew a blank. When I mentioned John Weyms- Dalrymple a puzzled look came over her and then a reflective Hmmm, I wonder? sort of look. I think that is currently stirring up some dusty memories because she then said she had a very vague idea that at one point Granny- Agnes went off to Hokitika to stay with her brother but she wasn't sure. I think you're hot on the trail again. Excellent- bring it on :clapping:

[Shizara]

On a bit of a information digging roll at the moment though need some clarity on something. "Aunt Nell", daughter of Southey Baker, what is her real name? This is important because I have found someone with a connection to both the Southey Baker men I have found.

Also, John Herbert Hankins was a very respectable man. Were the two children that are attributed to Southey Baker older or younger than the 5 born to Agnes and John Hankins?

[Shizara]

I need to investigate this further, but, I found a marriage for Emilie Eliza Dalrymple. - Yes, I know the spelling of the Christian name is different but that isn't unusual.

Emilie Eliza Dalrymple married Arthur Robert Nicholls in 1878. There have been three births found to this couple and naturally am wondering if the key to this is within the name of the second child:

1879 - Alma Marcia NICHOLLS - death (1880) aged 9 months

1881 - Frank Wemyss Dalrymple NICHOLLS * no death found in NZ

1882 - Kate Elaine NICHOLLS* no death found in NZ

[Shizara]

On a roll now with regard to Emily Eliza Dalrymple. She didn't stay in New Zealand. She went to Australia, New South Wales to be precise. She died in 1949 in Sydney and her father is named as George Samuel Wemyss. Of interest, her mother is not named.

Her son Frank was a Dentist. - More to follow when I put it all together.

[Shizara]

Such a wealth of information and I have another place in NZ to make contact with that has, it seems, more information, so bear with me. I want to finish collating and updating your evergrowing family tree, though, at some point I will need to make a tree using a file you can open, unless you have Family Tree Maker.

Exciting times!

[Gladys]

Dear Shizara, What a roll you've been on indeed. At last Emily seems to be surfacing. I still wonder about Sarah thomson though. No I don't have a family tree maker- I wouldn't know where to begin(Density problem again!)
The SB v JHH issue is in my private messages response to your Q. I will clarify this with her but I recall that is what she said. Excellent this is- what a family those Victorians :clapping:

[Shizara]

Giggles.. you aren't wrong. As a picture emerges I get more intrigued and wonder what is around the next corner.

[Gladys]

Its as good as if not better than a film. Perhaps I ought to write it up!!! :D

[Shizara]

You should! Your mother will be chortling for the rest of her days! This is easily one of the most interesting, never a dull moment adventure that I have ever been on.

I have sent off an email tonight to see if I can get an obituary look up for John Herbert Hankins. This might help with a few more details including the names of all 7 children.

[Gladys]

I have to say my Mum hasn't stopped giggling with each sequel I update her with. I have friends in ' The Club' They too are looking for us, especially with regard to the stuff before NZ. Who needs night time dreams when you have this lot to ponder over? !!! :clapping:

[Shizara]

Have just received an email with the obituary for John Herbert Hankins and it has some useful information. I need to type it out from the newspaper article and will do that when I come home tonight.

[Gladys]

Shizara, This is so cool- peeps in NZ with info 90 years later communicating back here. I've been given a copy of the one for TU Cook as well from Foxton.:clapping: Hope you have a good day round UK today.

[Shizara]

Oooh... it's a real treasure trove. First .. SOUTHEY BAKER is the right name. In the early 1880's he was in partnership with John Herbert Hankins.

[Shizara]

A brief outline of the identies of the 7 children from the notes:

It would seem that they are:

John George Herbert Hankins
Chas E Hankins - who lived in Oregon USA (?)
Ethel May Hankins - married William Lockhart Fitzherbert
Gertrude Muriel Winifred Hankins (born at sea) - married Flinders Scott McRae
Agnes Eleanor Hankins - married Peter Lockhart Sim
William Herbert (Ford) Hankins - deceased
Kenneth Arthur Hankins - deceased

I am currently looking up the dates and places and the names may not necessarily be in order of birth.

Am assuming that Nell was a knickname and as she married Peter Sim it would appear that Agnes Eleanor Hankins was her real name.

[Gladys]

Oh My Goodness me- Shizara.(LOL) I can imagine the whisperings behind the filing cabinets in The Firm's Office back then. Its a right load of carry ons!!!! SB a Partner? No wonder there is an air of a smoke screen my Mum was brought up to feel about them all. Nell fits eleanor- Ell, Elly Nelly. Its getting better and better. :clapping:

[Shizara]

Have you started that book yet? I have a feeling there is more to come.... :rolleyes:

[Gladys]

I'm definitely 'up' for it. I still wonder what happened to 'the lost' wife; Sarah Thomson, more Qs like 'where did the other son from Sarah and George Samuel WD pop-up from and what happened to him and his offspring? What brought The WDs and the Hankins to NZ? If we can fill in some of that, I think there's a foundation on which to build a series!!! :clapping:

[Shizara]

Grins.. Someone, somewhere knows about Sarah and there is still a great, big, pile of stones to turn over.

Now, have you an account at genesreunited? If so, I won't go down that avenue as you have already done it.

[Gladys]

I have an account (basic free one) but have actually got very little infact Zilch from it so really haven't bothered. Is it worth looking at again,then? I'm looking forward to turning up these stones. Its a 'colourful' den under there. Bring it on!!! :D

[Shizara]

Giggles - I have a paid for account there and use it regularly. Will do a cursory search before I go into whizzy_mode and get ready for work.

[Shizara]

Sent off 2 enquiries.

[Gladys]

I've logged on again. I must say I do find the tools rather annoying for Tree Building. I see my Brother has started a Tree for My Mother. I don't know how far he's got with it and My sister-in-law has also been dabbling with The Barefeet! :p Have a good Day.:)

[Shizara]

News flash...

[Shizara]

George Samuel Wemyss Dalrymple was born 18th December 1828 at 11am - how precise is that??

On the 18th December 1828 at 11am, George Wemyss Dalrymple, propriétaire, aged 28, presented a male infant, son of himself and Eliza Thompson Hall, his wife, married at (Guernsey?), (7th August 1826?), the child named George Samuel Wemyss.

[Gladys]

Blimey-did they have stop watch on the arrangement! There's more 'Thompson' in it too- Eliza Thompson Hall. However, did you find this? Its amazing.:clapping:

[Shizara]

Using the mobile as am on my way to work. Explain more tonight. Also, I think I have your connection with the aristocracy.

[Gladys]

What you mean there is one!!! I can't wait to hear more. Do I get a tiara and a butler or just the dusty skeletons and ghosts? Cool, I'll get the House movers ready- Castle here I come!!! :clapping:

[Shizara]

Giggles... you might have to go for the dusty skeletons and ghosts.... But.. if I am on the right track, and it's only an if... there might be an Indian connection. I know you mentioned one before but think it was in connection with your father's side of the family.

My brain is a bit treacle-like tonight but will do a bit more before bed. I want to be sure with this bit so I don't go leading you up a gum tree. :p

[Gladys]

Shizara, It is becoming more and more international. They really covered the planet that lot. I'll wait for more updates. Mum was in hysterics yesterday when I showed her the SB firm connection. She is enjoying this. I also note the child under B in the cemetary whose names are given as Bernard Wheymss. There's so much to this lot with much sadness too. It makes you stop and think quite a bit.:unsure:

[Shizara]

It looks line the link is finally cracked and I haven't done this entirely on my own. It's a combination of knowing where to look for information and when you don't know where to look or are stumped asking for assistance to help you over a stumbling block.

For those following this search and interested in their own family tree, not everyone has such a colourful background as this, however, everyone has an ancestry and for each individual it is special because it is about YOU, about the things that your ancestors did that you have and had no control over.

Within families tales are often passed down that bear an element of truth but over the years have been embellished to make a family seem grander than it was. The fun part is proving or disproving and finding exactly what the truth was. It can take you on a virtual journey around the world, to far off places and often you find a record of them turning up in the most unlikely - in our minds - of places. We weren't a "fly on the wall" when decisions were made and sometimes one parent disappears into the oblivion and no record found of a death. There are many reasons for this, one being that the individual has gone off to make a new life in a new place.

It is important to realize that even if none of your ancestors were titled if it wasn't for them you wouldn't be here today, yet, more often than not we are able to have glimpses into their lives, find where they lived, what they did for employment, how big the families were and even find long lost relatives. Along this journey of search you meet others and most in the family history search world are willing to help others with pointers in the right direction or even shared information if you are on the same family search. It should never be assumed that this information should be demanded because it is relevant to your tree. They have worked to find it in the first place and whilst willing to help others polite requests and genuine appreciation for the assistance will carry us a long way.

Researching your family history can be very rewarding but also can carry an element of frustration when you come up against brick walls that have to be navigated around to find a gate. It also gives you something of great value to hand on to the next generation. The value is in that it is THEIR ancestry in the same way that it is yours.

How many of us, as children delighted in the tales told by the older ones in families? Sometimes they were glossied up to make the tale more interesting. Irrespective of all that it is nice if there is at least one custodian so to speak in the family willing to take on the task of recording the ancestry of your family and adding to it. A journey that will never be complete and requires interest, dedication and a willingness to do this for the family.

Researching in today's world is at our fingertips and you don't always have to leave home to do it. The internet is a very useful tool and can save you a lot of money along the way. Unless you are in a position to do so, it might take a little longer sometimes but much useful information can be gleaned from the use of free sites such as FreeBMD, FreeParishReg and LDS - choose Family History. Join forums that specialise in your area of search - Google searching will help with this.

Remember this though, if you are prepared to go and ask others to help you, equally, at some point and time if you are in a position to help others in their quest you should not hold back from helping them and if you are part of a forum it may be that you have noticed a posting that you have an answer to, then share the information willingly, after all, someone in the past has done just that to help you along the way.

Now, back to Gladys...

[Shizara]

Gladys, the short version of this is that it seems that you are a descendant of Sir William Dalrymple, 3rd Bart. of Cousland.

[Shizara]

Gladys, can you check your PMs? - Thanks

[Gladys]

Thank you to all. Well blow me over. It is true except where do Agnes/ Eliza and thier Father GS WD fit into the line? Sarah has gone AWAL and there's the other son. Its intrigue at its best. Well done to all. I see many hits at the thread so its entertaining quite a few peeps too. Have read the PMs- no problem. I think its part of history and part of me and my family. Carry on. :clapping:

[Shizara]

Giggles... well... I have the answer to Agnes and Eliza...

Sir James Dalrymple, 1st Bt. and Catherine Douglas - parents of..
|
Sir John Dalrymple, 2nd Bt. and Elizabeth Fletcher - parents of..
|
Sir William Dalrymple, 3rd Baronet of Cousland and Agnes Crawford / Ann Philp - parents of..
|
Lieut -Col. James Dalrymple, of the Madras Army married Mooti Begum
|
George Wemyss Dalrymple married Eliza Thompson Hall - parents of..
|
George Samuel Wemyss Dalrymple married Sarah Thomson - parents of..
|
Agnes Sophia Wemyss Dalrymple married John Herbert Hankins - parents of
|
John George Herbert Hankins married Olive Mary Te Akau Hickson
|
Your mother
|
You

[Shizara]

That's just a direct line and no dates.. I have the dates in your tree.

[Gladys]

Shizara, put it like that and it brings it together. Shiver my timbers. (I'd better write to the Queen- she's forgotten our garden party invites!!!) :clapping: The OIL Painting I've been mentioning must be of Lieut. Col. James Dalrymple. The one my Mum has always spoken of. You showed me one but I don't think it was him. I'll look for it again. So does that make Agnes and Eliza- Ladies? :)Mum always said Uncle Budge used to refer to her sometimes in that way but they thought he was being stuffy.
Just being a bit dense- but I am not sure that The Lieut.Col.James Dalrymple is our connection. If he is, did he marry twice' once to Ann Philip? Is Ann Philip mother of George Samuel Weymss-Dalrymple? I am being dense.
Ayway,from my earlier post 'and there's the other son' Agnes and Eliza's brother is John George Weymss-Dalrymple born or baptised 18/10/1854 in Glasgow. Eliza is recorded as being born or baptised in St Cuthbert's,Edinburgh 19/04/1853. Agnes as we know in Leith on 5/02/1851.
Entry for a marriage in NZ for John George Weymss Dalrymple to a Miss Amelia Ann Cook!!!

[Shizara]

Well spotted.. it should be..

Will sort it out and re post it.

[Gladys]

I'm being dense again.Can you clarify? 'Well spotted.. it should be..' Not sure which bit you mean. I've been a bit bammboozled with my reading s today.:p:)

[Shizara]

Have spotted the marriage entry for J G W Dalrymple and a couple of other relevant entries. Currently humming and hawwing over whether to order the certificates or not in the hope they will offer clarification.

Will respond to the other queries a bit later.

[Gladys]

I got a bit flumoxed as I couldn't get the date. I also think I found children born of that marriage- but also got fuddled by a 'William' who married an 'Eliza' and bore children. Don't know if they are relevant. Good Luck. Marmalade and Treacle. What a family. I still want to know what they were doing in 'The New World' and what happened to Sarah Thompson who is listed with the spelling of the name with a'P'- Scottish!!! If GSWD is the 2nd son of the Earl, He was Hon>GSWD and the girls were 'Misses' not ladies. Oh gosh its gets more complicated.:clapping:

[Shizara]

Something for you in the interim. I remember you mentioned an Indian connection but not sure if you meant Canadian Indian as part of your family were from Canada or someone from India. Anyway, made reference to an Indian connection I had found in an earlier post but was reluctant to put the few details that I had because I didn't have enough information to answer questions. I now have found what I was looking for and it might solve your query regarding the Indian connection and also the question regarding Lieutenant Colonel James Dalrymple being the right one. I believed it was when I posted the rough outline of your direct descendancy and I still do.

You will be aware of this because I have already mentioned it before:

Lt.-Col. James Dalrymple was the son of Sir William Dalrymple, 3rd Bt. and Anne Philp. He died in 1800, unmarried.

Now, this next bit might make that all a bit clearer:

Have removed the quote as it came from material with a copywrite. However, in essence the marriage with the Indian princess Mooti Begum and the children born to them were erased from family records on the British side. The sons were raised in Madras as Christians and sent back to East Lothian.

When I did the rough outline of your direct descendancy I believed that the Lieutenant Colonel James Dalrymple, son of Sir William, 3rd Bar. was the father of George Wemyss Dalrymple. I still do believe that.

As time permits I am still turning over the stones for information.

[Gladys]

Wow, I'm still abit fuddled by it though. I had meant a Red Indian connection through the Winter line (Not sure if its one of those 'tales')but if this is part of us too- even more international as I said before.
Incidentally, I have found that John George W D having Married Amelia Ann Cook in 1916, he died in 1927 aged 65. She died in 1958 aged 88. Her parents are not recorded on her birth registration in 1869, although, there were 2 females by the name of Cook whose deaths were recorded in 1868- Eliza Hampden Cook with no record of Birth in the database that i can find and then Margaret Hannah Cook registered as born 1866. The latter may be Amelia's Mother- who knows. I'm not sure what comes next. Still want to know what The WDs are doing in NZ nack then. Did see but couldn't access it a 'Lord Dalrymple' as a passenger to New South Wales on the list for when it started etc- may be something or nothing. :clapping:

'Lieutenant Colonel James Dalrymple, son of Sir William, 3rd Bar. was the father of George Wemyss Dalrymple.' Found Last Will and Testament for George Weymss-Dalrymple. He left his estate to' Eliza Thomson Hall or Dalrymple' having died at ?Kinnings (Its hard to make out) Cottage, Paisley 1848, Scotland.

[Shizara]

Crikey.. you have been busy. Do you have a copy of the Will or do you want me to send it because I got it the other day and have only just typed it into text form.

[Gladys]

Wow Shizara, you're on the ball. My Computer is a fossil model and everytime I tried to print off the Will it crunched, groaned ,froze etc and I still don't have it although I did save it hopefully to enlarge it somehow. I'd appreciate a copy if you have one spare. The Lieut.J D is still puzzling me and the Sarah T mystery is definetly bugging me. I think there's a wider field to scan through especially with Sarah. Thinking 'left outside the box' I note on the 1871 census a Sarah T is noted from Lancashire, Blackburn,Oswaltwistle to be residing at HMs Pleasure in Surrey. Just one idea or maybe she died on route to The New World :mad::p:)

[Shizara]

Well...

1. Can send you the text version of the Will so no problem there.

2. What are you finding puzzling about Lieutenant Colonel James Dalrymple? How he fits into the puzzle?

3. Sarah Thompson is a mystery, but have been putting more feelers out about her too. One avenue that might give answers is in the death certificate for George Samuel Wemyss Dalrymple. Other than passenger lists I have found no mention of her in articles about George.

[Gladys]

Hello Shizara- I've just got back from work so apologies for not getting back sooner. Yes, a text version of the GWD Will would be helpful if you don't mind. It is how Lieut. JD fits in to the puzzle that gets me stomped abit. If he married Mooti Begum he must have been divorced here. (That's the slow part of me!!!) If his offsprings records were somehow 'commuted' then this may lead us to where/why etc. I wonder if there's any info from The masons like a pic of GSWD? He was one and who knows, this may be how he got AGnes etc married off? Otherwise it seems Sarah T has disappeared into the ether. The only other idea I had was that she became ill or was 'indisposed' and was an inpatient at a hospital. :)
I have found the announcement of the marriage between JH Hankins and AS Weymss-Dalrymple. It is spelt as such. It was on 26/10/1872 at All Saints Hokitika. (not Palmerston North as My Mum had said)It says she is 'eldest daughter of GSWD' - no mention of Sarah T which is significant. Hence they didn't wish to mention her mother who would usually be mentioned her as 'The Late' or otherwise unless there was something they didn't want to draw attention to. As they arrived in Hokitika in 1871 again I have found them on the passenger list but no Sarah T or JHWD (son) Any ideas?

[Shizara]

Ok.. will try and give you a run down of how I see things regarding Lieutenant Colonel James Dalrymple and how he fits in. As I go will give you some urls to go to so that you can verify the sources of the information and try to explain, rather than confuse along the way. I will start with Sir William Dalrmple, 3rd Bar...

First, go to thePeerage.com - Person Page 3463 (http://thepeerage.com/p3463.htm) and scroll down to:

Sir William Dalrymple, 3rd Bt. was born on 23 September 1704. He married Agnes Crawford, daughter of William Crawford, in 1726.

You will note that Sir William Dalrymple had 2 children with Agnes Crawford. Now, it would seem that he had a second family of 4 children with Ann Philp. The first child, Lt.-Col. James Dalrymple, you will note, died 1800. Now, if you click on his name you will see that he was unmarried when he died in 1800. At this point you might think.. "Well, that's it then. He wasn't married and had no children." Now, go to this url:

Seringapatam 1799: Biographies - Hyderabad Army (http://www.lib.mq.edu.au/digital/seringapatam/hyderabad.html)

This supports the 1880 year for the death of Lt.-Col. James Dalrymple.

The next url is equally important. I suggest you read the whole account:

Voices on the Verandah: Anthology of ... - Google Book Search (http://books.google.com/books?id=Gbta66P_UTcC&pg=PA187&dq=mooti+begum&ei=nUkNSrDJKJKSzgSxo4mXAg#PPA187,M1)

To support the idea that George Wemyss Dalrymple is the son of Lieutenant Colonel James Dalrymple there are the following extracts which can be found by searching Google Books:

1. ALLEN'S INDIAN MAIL AND REGISTER OF INTELLGENCE FOR BRITISH AND FOREIGN INDIA, CHINA AND ALL PARTS OF THE EAST.

VOL. V1.

JANUARY - DECEMBER, 1848

Jan 1, Mr George Wemyss Dalrymple, son of the late Lieut. Col. James Dalrymple of the Madras Army; at Kinning-cottage, Glasgow. (Note, this is when George Wemyss Dalrymple died)

2. Report for the Year Ended ...? - Page 79
by India Office Library and Records - History - 1972
With an explanatory note on the letter by George Samuel Wemyss Dalrymple,
grandson of Lieutenant-Colonel Dalrymple, and a typewritten transcript. ...

3. The Gentleman's magazine - Page 334
by John Nichols - History - 1848
**At Glasgow, Mr. George-Wemyss Dal- rymple, son of the late Lieut -Col. James
Dalrymple, of the Madras Army, and grandson of the late Sir William Dalrymple,** (Note, ignore the extra hyphens)

Moving back to 1828, there is a birth in L'Orient, France:

Birth registered with the French civil authorities:

L'Orient, France

On the 18th December 1828 at 11am, George Wemyss Dalrymple, propriétaire, aged 28, presented a male infant, son of himself and Eliza Thompson Hall, his wife, married at (Guernsey?), (7th August 1826?), the child named George Samuel Wemyss.

So, at this point that leaves me to conclude that:

Sir William Dalrymple, 3rd Bart. of Cousland is the father of..
|
Lieutenant Colonel James Dalrymple. The dates and the circumstances match up. That he is the father of..
|
George Samuel Wemyss Dalrymple who is the father of..
|
1. Agnes Sophia Wemyss Dalrymple.
2. Emily Eliza Dalrymple.
3. John George Wemyss Dalrymple.

When you have read the urls you will probably pick up things such as the marriage to Mooti Begum being erased away. I daresay the marriage may well have been a no-no. As for divorce, I think we may well struggle to find a record of that.

[Shizara]

I wonder if there's any info from The masons like a pic of GSWD?

There is a picture of him here:

George Samuel Wemyss Dalrymple | NZETC (http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/Cyc01Cycl-fig-Cyc01Cycl0961a.html)

If you go to:

Professional, Commercial, And Industrial | NZETC (http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-Cyc01Cycl-t1-body-d4-d83-d16.html)

There is more information there.

[Gladys]

Shizara, Al I can say now is 'Wow'! I need t look at all of this. I am still perturbed by the AWAL of Sarah T. If The 'Establishment' have 'rubbed out' Mooti Begum's offspring, they can do anything! ( In those days;they did)I also see from paper achives that GSWD had lots of property that at some point he was forced to sell off. This included not only NZ property but a property in London. What a boy!!!:)

[Shizara]

I don't think I would focus too much on that angle as an explanation for not being able to find Sarah. There could be any number of reasons. She may have gone to Australia / Scotland / England or even back to Ireland. She may have divorced, she may have remarried. Am still looking for her.

[Gladys]

Shizara, 'This supports the 1880 year for the death of Lt.-Col. James Dalrymple.' The literature says he died in 1800, do you mean 1880 or 1800? I think you meant 1800. It does fit. My sceptiscism is unwarranted. It really does seem to be that GSWD is the Grandson of the 3rd Bart. of Cousland. So he was a 'Sir' himself if Lieut Col.James Dalrymple is the eldest son of The Baronet William Dalrymple. If he was a 2nd son or 3rd even, I believe that makes him The Honourable GSWD. The oil painting Mummy has gone on about that has gone AWAL must be the one of The Lieut. Col in scarlet jacket.
This makes it even more peculiar that GSWD should end up in NZ with his children. Incidentally, there's a younger photo of him reference- Otago Witness Issue 2300 of 31/03/1898 Page 15.
Oh goodness me, so Agnes was either lady Agnes or The Hon. Miss etc? I also found a reference to his respect and interest in Horsemanship which again is a lasting memory of my Mother's of her Grandmother: Agnes. (Taranaki Herald VoL 155/2015 dated 10/07/1902 page 2) Agnes had racehorses and they all used to be chauffeur driven off to the races to watch them run.
So that makes the 3rd Baronet my Great great great Grandfather? Hmmm :clapping:

[Gladys]

Shizara, This is a lot to take in- phew...breath!!!. I have looked at The Peerage.com pages and am more worried by the fact when you click on the link for Lieut.Col. James Dalrymple it 'corrects' to The Lieut. Gen. Samuel who was his younger brother, I think. More to think about....:confused::)

okay,so I'm slow - it's called digesting! Lieut.Col James Dalrymple was the elder son, that means GWD was his elder son, so he was Lord or Sir George WD; that means GSWD should have been Lord-Sir etc which makes Agnes Sophia- Lady. Except the title seems to have gone to Lieut.Gen - 2nd son William Dalrymple- Anne Philip is a problem!!!!Having problems here. His Lordship and meself are trying to get the ends tied up except they seem to have been mixed up deliberately long agoc!!! Slow peeps down south!!!

[Gladys]

I'm still digesting all of this. I've found something that makes me wonder more. Does anyone think its significant- look at the date.
Monumental inscriptions in Inveresk Kirkyard
extant in 1857
15. JAMES DALRYMPLE, Esq., late Lieutenant-Colonel of the First Battalion of the Royals, died 21st Nov. 1791.
Rest yet awhile within thy narrow room,
Ye high prized relics of the best of men,
Till at the trumpet's sound thy faithful tomb
Shall render up its trust to earth again ;
Then shall exulting choirs of angels cry,
Happy the man whose talent is improved,
Come, heir of glory, to your master's joy-
Come, taste the applauses of the God you love.
The Hon. ELlZ. ST CLAIR, relict of Lieut.-Col. James Dalrymple, died Nov. 13th, 1811.
Your Scottish ancestors traced: Monumental inscriptions in Inveresk Kirkyard (http://www.ancestor.abel.co.uk/inv/mi1857.html)

This bit below is an extract from Burk's Peerage- they are saying, they claim to be but can't prove it!!!
22. Family Name: STAIR
Incumbent: THE 14TH EARL OF STAIR
Lineage: The present DALRYMPLEs claim but cannot prove descent via the DALRYMPLEs OF... ...

[Shizara]

Just a quick response before going off to a meeting. I might be able to locate a living relative for you that I think would be a cousin to your mother. Have emailed the person I made contact with. Gertrude Hankins and Flinders McRae had 3 children that I can see. Will let you know if I get a response.

[Gladys]

How cool is that!! Brilliant. Mum has from time to time mentioned Uncle Flin whom she says was a 'Dear'. If I'm recalling him as 'The Uncle Flin' He had a bull that was friendly and docile and Mum used to go along and stroke it etc.I hope this relative does reply. How clever you are.Thank you. Have a good day.:clapping:

Mum says they were Jack, Joan and Betty. Jack married a french woman, Joan married Dan Lethbridge and had 2 boys one of whom was Mike and Betty was an actress and married an American and had a little boy. She moved to the USA. I'm getting confused because she also went on to say Aunt May had 2 girls one; Marjorie died at childbirth leaving her baby Heather and the other was Dulcie who married a Marchbanks and moved to Australia. _ Its unlocked lots more and more to the point getting the memories organised.

[Gladys]

Hello Shizara, I have been working so not very active but have had a few chances at going round in circles with this today. Have you heard from any rellies? Any news on Sarah? Anyway, I've come across a few documents about The Stairs and thier ancestors but still it 'rubs out' Lieut.Col. James and to some extent The 3rd Bart.William his father. I think a decision was made in The House of Lords in 17 something about the lineage but I'm not sure. I also see that the line became extinct in 1971 from the lineage created then but has recently been 'reactivated' with The present Stair line. I wish I knew more about all of this, its so confuddling and exciting at the same time. :clapping:

[Shizara]

Not heard from any of the rellies yet.. I did email William Dalrymple the author but not heard from him either.

Nothing on Sarah yet.

At this point are you happy to go with the likelihood of George Wemyss Dalrymple being the father of George Samuel Wemyss Dalrymple?

[Shizara]

If you go to the address I gave you there is the transcription for George Wemyss Dalrymple. If you have a problem finding it just PM me.

[Gladys]

Hello Shizara, Yes,it does seem logical that George Weymms-Dalrymple was George Samuel Weymss-Dalrymple's Father. I must say I am rather confuddled by the amount of Dalrymples there are and were. From that I'd really like to know how the 'Weymss' got added as there are few records of those. I wonder also if 'The Wallaces' are relevant, I still can't find the letter that mentions them although some one has said this letter exists.(Remember I have found an entry for twins...-Wallaces') I really don't know at this point. Also my Mother corrected me yesterday saying the Oil Painting is of a General So ???Samuel, or William? I'm not sure. I feel as though I swam in treacle today after searching. I really do not find this an easy thing, not that I expect it to be. I just think some people are better at it than me- you for example. :)

[Shizara]

Did you manage to download the probate transcription ok?

[Gladys]

Dear Shizara,
Thank heavens your on the 'airwaves' again. No I haven't been able to do that. I messaged you to ask if you would mind sending the link again. Sorry, I'm just abit stupid with things like filing and folders etc. I guess this does mean you've found something- cool :p
Is it for George Samuel Weymss-Dalrymple? If I remember correctly, in my searches through Past Papars online from NZ, I did see his final settlement was something like £749. A long time prior to his death, there were other things as well, like the sale at auction of about 12 properties he owned with one in London. I'm sure I told you but excuse me if I didn't because I must say, I have very confused again with all the James' and Anns etc. I am really stuck with trying to find evidence of George Weymss-Dalrymple's parentage, 'The Wallaces' may be something and nothing- have you had any luck?

[Gladys]

Brilliant stuff now that George Weymss-Dalrymple's parentage is confirmed, it would be excellent to confirm a birth entry though.(Walleces etc...) That confirms George Samuel Weymss-Dalrymple's parentage and my Mother's who shall now from here on be known as 'my lady'!!! It is due to her and she's still giggling. :D
So what we know so far is the 3rd Bart- William Dalrymple's 1st Son John and his second son William are from Agnes Crawford. Lieut.Col. James his 3rd son, Weymss-Dalrymple and Samuel are from Ann Philip, the 3rd Bart's 2nd wife as Agnes died in 1755. Where did we find James' birth in 1756? James married Anne Philip and had George Weymss-Dalrymple who married Eliza Thompson-Hall in 1826, Guernsey and they had George Samuel Weymss-Dalrymple in 1828 in L'Orient. The link below shows an address for GWD in L'Orient July 12th 1834 So:-
What I'd really like to establish now is why there is no birth entry that we can find for George WD and how do you trace school attendances etc for such? Further on from that why was he 'sent' away? The Ann/Anne Philip ladies William 3rd Bart and Lieut.Col. James married were different peeps -Thank heavens. Now, does anyone have any leads on the gossip columns of the time and decisions of The Lords in Parliament in that era? :p:)
Full text of "A Description of the Azores, Or Western Islands. From Personal Observation ..." (http://www.archive.org/stream/adescriptionazo01boidgoog/adescriptionazo01boidgoog_djvu.txt)
This is a book wriiten by GDW and some letters as well. In them he does refer to his relations..' my relations...General Samuel Dalrymple'

[Shizara]

"Crikey mate!" - Grins.. am catching up with the conversation in the family research site. Am so glad you went there because it likely confirms now what I have been putting in here, which, if I am honest, are combinations of clarity and treacle.

Will try and finish the reading tonight and see where we move to next.

[Gladys]

:D It is fun and they have been so very helpful as you suggested would be the case. I must confess, I'm a bit 'stuck in the treacle and marmalade ' again as to where to go next. It does seem we need firm evidence of Lieut.Col. James' birthdate, an entry or something similar, some way of establishing GWD's birthdate, (we have his death, last Will and Testament) His writings give pointers to birth connections 'my relations General George Roberst and General Samuel Dalrymple' (App 367, page 149) Interestingly, in reading through what I have, I have noted 3 times now that there is the very real evidence of a daughter to GWD previously not found. '(my Dear Son-in-Law having fallen in the cause of Donna Maria)' (App 367, page 147) and 'in consequence on my Dear Son-in-law 'William Dawson, having being killed on board Her M.F.M.frigate Donna Maria in the engagement of October 11th 1832' (App 368, page 148)
Remembering that GWD married Eliza Thompson-Hall in 1826 and GSWD was born in 1828, this would suggest he may have been married before and had the daughter who was married to Midshipman Dawson. :clapping:

Since writing the above a couple of hours back, I have been wading through the treacle. I may have found something or there again -nothing. The IGI gives 2 references for Male Births for James Dalrymple 'about 1747, Causland, Midlothian, Scotland.' Entries 23 and 22, I think the entry for 22 is more favourable simply because it lists his death as 1800.(Entry 22= film number 177898, Page 1020, ref 40301/ entry 23=184272,page 1077,ref 31686) Church of the Latter Day Saints. If this is 'our' James' and I'm not at all sure how on earth I access those films, then as I first suspected he may have been born out of wedlock to William (and Ann) as William's wife Agnes died 1755. It makes sense from the etiquette of the era his parentage would have been 'accepted' if his parents became married, which they apparently did.What now, any ideas?(Scotlandspeople birth/baptism record of William son of 3rd Bart.William and Agnes Crawford 05/03/1747 GROS entry 680/0010 0130- confirms my need to look at The LDS archive as SP gives specifics for Birth/Baptism of William. LDS entry is for birth record for a 'James')

[Shizara]

Seringapatam 1799: Biographies - Hyderabad Army (http://www.lib.mq.edu.au/digital/seringapatam/hyderabad.html)

DALRYMPLE, James (1757-1800) - Lieutenant-Colonel
[British Subsidiary Force (HEIC) - Hyderabad Army]
Commissioned: Cadet (HEIC) 1770; Ensign 22 February 1782; Lieutenant 4 July 1778; Captain 2 November 1783; Major 1 March 179*; Lieuteant-Colonel 1 June 1796.
Dalrymple had been a prisoner of Hyder Ali and Tipu Sultan at Seringapatam with David Baird. Both men had been captured after the disastrous British defeat at Pollilur in 1780.
He died at Hyderabad on 9 December 1800. He was married to Mooti Begum, the daughter of the the Nawab of Masulipatam, and they had five (5) children - 4 sons and 1 daughter, Noor Jah Begum.

That suggests to me that his birth may well be c1757.

[Gladys]

Gosh Shizara, that's brilliant. I must say I haven't had much luck looking for his army records. I'm still unsure about his DOB.I've looked at the Will of The Dowager LAdy Ann Dalrymple. It's very hard to read and as yet nothing is standing out. I also looked at the entry for the Will of The Late Lieut.Col. James Dalrymple 8/12/1800 at NAS and it says something in the synopsis that contradicts or adds to William Dalrymple's writing that says The Lieut.Col. had 5 children with Mooti Begum-4 boys and 1 girl unless I have recalled that wrongly.The Will of James says:-
'Attested true copy of last will .... of James Dalrymple, Lieut-Col in the HEIC's coast military establishment [half-brother of Sir John Dalrymple, 4th bart of Cousland],... with copy letter from E McBean to her sister Noorjah Begum, daughters of said James, educated under the name of Watson, and from Noorjah Begum, 26 October 1871, to H D E Dalrymple,...The Adyar, at Madras [India].' This suggests William Dalrymple's research may be missing detail. If Noorjah Begum wrote in 1871, she was either 71 or older and I am also mindful of the Birth of George Weymss-Dalrymple for whom an entry is seeming to be absent. For that reason I'd like to check out The LDS entry which I now see I can do by phone tomorrow at a LDS history centre nearby.That entry says Birth 'ABout 1747' and 'Causland' which may have been a mistranscript of Cousland. 'about' may be because it isn't easy to read.

[Shizara]

So much intrigue and mystery going on here. Of course there is always a chance that George Wemyss Dalrymple had an Indian name too.

I have typed out that letter from George Wemyss Dalrymple that is mentioned above - the one about William Dawson. Shall I upload it for you?

[Gladys]

Skullduggery- somewhere, intrigue definitely. Have you spotted something? Yes, do it, it all helps. Marmalade and treacle cemented with mud!:banana:

[Gladys]

Dear Shizara-I'm still in suspense. Have you checked your Pms? :D I couldn't phone the local LDS History centre. The number doesn't connect so I've emailed them through thier website, more suspense but not half as much as the main one. Fingers crossed.
Can you tell me how we know Lieut.Col. James married Ann Philip and Mooti Begum. The source for the latter- is that from the writings of William Dalrymple; author? The rootschat peeps are suggesting he may not have married Ann Philip and are asking how this is established. I can't remember.

[Shizara]

Think you will find Ann Philip is likely the mother of Lieut.Col.James Dalrymple, not his wife.

Children of Sir William Dalrymple, 3rd Bt. and Anne Philp

* Lt.-Col. James Dalrymple+ d. 1800
* Jane Dalrymple d. 1826

From the IGI - showing where Ann Philip fits in:

Wemyss Dalrymple, Christened 27 October 1767, daughter of William Dalrymple and Anne Philip.

Information on Philp, Anne (http://www3.dcs.hull.ac.uk/cgi-bin/gedlkup/n=royal?royal47076)

Philp, Anne married to Dalrymple, William, Bt. 3rd

Child 1: Dalrymple, James, Lt.Col.
Child 2: Dalrymple, Samuel, Lt.Col., b. 1760
Child 3: Dalrymple, Jane
Child 4: Dalrymple, Wemyss

[Gladys]

Hello Shizara, sorry i've been a bit side tracked with work for last few days. That does make sense but still if he married Mooti Begum, how have we established that? I don't quite know where to go from here. (Still waiting for a response from legal beagles- They probabley think I've gone raving mad. They're not far wrong though !!!:eek:)

[Shizara]

I know the feeling with being a bit sidetracked at work.

With regard to Mooti Begum I think that the one best able to help us with that is the author William Dalrymple as his book covers the subject of the marriage, though, not having read it yet, I don't know to what extent. I suspect too that the author is also related to you as well.

James Achilles Kirkpatrick, the British resident (in effect, ambassador) at the court of Hyderabad caused a bit of a scandal in Autumn 1801 by his behaviour - according to Guardian | White mischief (http://www.gpmsdbaweb.com/memoir2/_supportdocs/Folder_Dalrymple_Stuff/Dlrymple_White_amogjuls.htm)

William Dalrymple - the author, refers to the daughter of Lieut.Col. James Dalrymple and his wife Mooti Begum as Noor Jah Begum his long lost cousin. That would suggest that somewhere along the line his family connections connect with yours.

[Shizara]

I know the feeling with being a bit sidetracked at work.

With regard to Mooti Begum I think that the one best able to help us with that is the author William Dalrymple as his book covers the subject of the marriage, though, not having read it yet, I don't know to what extent. I suspect too that the author is also related to you as well.

James Achilles Kirkpatrick, the British resident (in effect, ambassador) at the court of Hyderabad caused a bit of a scandal in Autumn 1801 by his behaviour - according to Guardian | White mischief (http://www.gpmsdbaweb.com/memoir2/_supportdocs/Folder_Dalrymple_Stuff/Dlrymple_White_amogjuls.htm)

William Dalrymple - the author, refers to the daughter of Lieut.Col. James Dalrymple and his wife Mooti Begum as Noor Jah Begum his long lost cousin. That would suggest that somewhere along the line his family connections connect with yours.

[Gladys]

Oh goodness, Shizara, do you really think WD is related to me? I think a letter or email to his editor or publisher would be a good idea. He may be aware of our postings and is as equally dumbfounded as I am/You are !!!:eek: I'll have a look at any publishing info there is tomorrow. Still would like to know Mooti Begum's marriage cert info though. ANy news on Sarah Thompson? I saw something that suggests she died but no ref or details, so that may have been another Sarah. :)

[Shizara]

If Noor Jar Begum is his long lost cousin and she is a daughter of Lieut. Col. James Dalrymple, then unless he is using the term long lost cousin in the loosest sense then somewhere along the lines your families must connect.

I did try to make email contact with him but not had a response and I guess that could be for any number of reasons.

[Shizara]

Sarah Dalrymple nee Thomson still continues to be elusive.

[Gladys]

Hi, I'm back again- bit overtaken by son's needs-finding workplacements, apprenticeships,DJ suits for Summerball etc- all very diverse.
Well, it seems we have a bit of a 'brick wall' situation. From what I can tell, the legal beagles think I'm off my trolley, The peeps at C&Co are saying the GWD I know isn't the one they know.(I think he is) We need to know-:1) Lieut.Col. James' DOB( the evidence is it was 1757), 2)who he married with the proof, and 3) who his children were with proof. We have part way documented reference to him in his son's Will.(GWD)His own Will names another daughter other than Noorjah.(McBean) There are gaps and very obviously, it feels as if they were designed. What next, Dr Watson? Sherlock has need of more ideas! :banana:

[Gladys]

Hello, I've been thinking outside the box. GWD and his wife Eliza Thompson-Hall seemed to be settled in France. In 1826 they had GSWD. It just makes me wonder why the Grandson of an Earl and his family would settle in France at a time when the Storming of the Bastille and its sympathies and subsequent celebrations would be so active?(14/07/1790) The reasons for it would have still been so very raw.Royal heads rolled off the guillotine block.
I am niaive- obviously something to do with why Lieut.Col. James and his children were not recognised - any ideas/help?:)

[Shizara]

A good question. I daresay it will either be cloaked in mystery or we haven't stumbled across the answer yet, which, very likely, could be staring us in the face.

Without saying it in exact words I suspect the reason for the non recognition of the marriage and children could possibly be because in marrying they, along with others, have brought two very different cultures together. However, having said that, there must have been some recognition for the book articles to name the relationships, the announcement of the birth of George Samuel Wemyss Dalrymple and that record for the the estate of George Samuel Dalrymple after his death in Paisley, Renfrewshire where he is referred to as the grandson of William Dalrymple 3rd Bart.

[Gladys]

Hello Shizara, I'm really stumped. :crying: Either we need to look outside the box again or there are other archives we haven't found yet. I see that the Scotlands People website have listed more records that they've been putting onto microfische so maybe there's still loads of stuff to find. I thinkThe Honorable East India company must hold the key in thier vaults. I think further enquirey there may help. GWD does refer to 'my dear son-in-law' about the death on 11th October1832 of ?midshipman William Dawson killed onboard M.F.M.Frigate The Donna Maria'. Maybe the RN archives will yield something. This is what makes me think he had other children; in this case a daughter older than GSWD.:confused:
Dalrymple, James IOR/L/MIL/9/255/98v, 110 [n.d.] I wonder if there's anything in this at The British Library- India etc office? I'll have a look.

[Shizara]

This morning I emailed the library in Renfrewshire. I phone first and sent enough information to get the ball rolling so to speak. Have found that these sort of queries can yield some results, so here's hoping. - Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[Gladys]

Hello, I emailed WD- author. I thought if I contacted him myself it may yield some response if only- go away etc ... Anyway, I hope the Renfrewshire Library come back to you. I was thinking of contacting the British Library but on 2nd thoughts had a spark of an idea that The Bodleian Library at Oxford University may be more helpful, they have the book GWD wrote. I'll let you know.:)

[Shizara]

Superb.. I much prefer to get a message back saying "go away" than no response. You are right, contacting him directly yourself might be the way to go.

Will let you know as soon as I have a response from the library in Renfrewshire.

[Gladys]

Hello Shizara, I've got a reply from The Bodeleian- they have the manuscript. They gave me info on links I can use to see if he wrote any more- I'll let all know.:)

[Shizara]

Well done Gladys!

Remember, never give up and leave no stone unturned. It may well take a while but the information is out there.

[Gladys]

Hello Its me again, There doesn't seem to be anything else written by GWD. I'm trying to speak to the Bodleian chappy direct rather than by email so we'll see what he has to say. We're getting better at digging and lifting rocks. I rather feel there's a huge mountain still to go. :eek:

[Shizara]

..We're getting better at digging and lifting rocks. I rather feel there's a huge mountain still to go.

The opening words of a lovely old Nat King Cole song spring into mind..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVchcNt9610

Let's raise that mountain.

[Gladys]

Shizara- what can I say- you have taken me back to 2-3/4 years old.(+that -we left and came here when I was 7) My Mother used to play 'Old Nat' and sing to my Dad when we lived in Libya. How the heck do you put that on the site? Can you put 'Fallen Leaves' on . And Yes, I have faith. I emailed the National Archives in India today- didn't get a chance to speak to the Bodleian Library chap- my pet rat died yesterday and his brother died this morning-no warning. Both unexpected, both awful losses. Both such characters and great friends. Thank you, you've made me think more. What a friend.:)
Just got returned email from the India Archives peeps- email address won't deliver. I got it from the 'Who do you think you are' link on the BBC website- does anyone have any ideas as to how to progress this?

[Gladys]

YouTube - Autumn Leaves - Nat King Cole (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IDUxk9sSXI) You've got me on memory lane now. I don't know how to put music on the site like that but here's the link to Nat King Cole's 'Autumn Leaves' That's what I meant.:p Still no connection to The India Archives. It's a stitch up:banana:

[Gladys]

Dear Shizara- and all who are interested and helping. The Bodleian Library now say they have 2 copies of the book not the origional. They say they don't know where that is. The Rootschat Peeps gave me a link toThe India Office that actually works. I've sent them an email. I haven't heard back from WD- I think he's been reading the threads. Anyway, I got a reply from the solicitor-he says who ever has the book -its thiers.(Posession is 9 tenths of the law?spelling)He has suggested we look at The Cosmopolitan Records Office- I'm not quite sure what or where that is except it is in London. More treacle....:laugh::)

[Shizara]

Am so sorry to hear of the deaths of your pet rats. Pets are often loved as an extension of the family and their loss is really felt.

Am currently holiday, but, as is typical of me, I have my trusty laptop and am depending upon the sites that we have posted information as well as memory to continue searching. I have my mobile phone connected to the laptop as a modem. Slow, but am mostly only browsing, sending emails and posting on forums.

When posting here, if you go to Go Advanced tab it will show a YouTube icon. I use that and put the url in between. You will get the option to check to be sure it looks right.

I heard back from the Paisley Library but with information we have already found. Am about to post on a couple of other messageboards. Brick walls and red tape just make you more determined.

[Gladys]

Thank you Shizara, We have been sad and missing these little characters. I really think the heat got to them. Anyway, I hope you are enjoying your hols. I emailed The India office and this time it went thru. As yet I haven't had any reply but it has only been 2 days. I'll give them until tomorrow and then I'll prompt. They may be as gobsmacked as I am and scratching heads etc- that's being hopeful b'cos if they are it means they have info and are joining the dots. I haven't heard back from the historian chappy for Hailebury College either, I'll definitely prompt him. My solicitor has responded with the advice to try The Metropolitan Office in London though he said it's better to go there. He also said that if The Bodley have the book-it's thiers. I have established they don't have the origional; just 2 copies. So the search goes on....Treacle, marmalade, redtape and brickwalls :bounce::) I told Mum about The Indai link possibilty- she said she thought this was 'it'. Not quite sure what she meant but I'll ask again. I have to say she has always talked of India as my Father's Father served there and so did his father. (Another side of the family yet to unfurl- The Barefoot side which may also link with The Winters before the marriages because of India :p)

[Shizara]

There is quite a story unfolding in here and am sure there is much more to come.

[Gladys]

It all seems to have come to a grinding holt. I haven't heard back from The India Office. I prompted them again on Friday. Maybe they'll reply this week. It seems as though we've stumbled upon a historical situation that 'they' didn't or don't want unearthed. It was buried for posterity for reasons we assume possibley relate to the mixing of two cultures and royalties. However, the genes live on - The Warrior, The Soldier and The Explorer amongst others.:)

[Gladys]

Interracial marriages in 19th century India | UK news | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/dec/09/britishidentity.india) I have replied to this through The Guardian's 'contact us' link. We'll see what happens if anything.:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVchcNt9610http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVchcNt9610
This is required

[Gladys]

Rootschat peeps have told me to be patient cos when it goes quiet, things can happen or else to go to NAS to see James' Will. I think it's in London though- I need to calrify that. There's nothing on the airwaves at all now- I know that means we've found the last link required to sort it all out. Help all who may and Thanks to all who have. Mummy is extremely perplexed at this India connection. For some unknown reason she understands Nawabs etc- I didn't.:)

[Shizara]

Don't give up. It isn't unusual for things to go quiet for a while. I am still researching this end and waiting for responses.

[Gladys]

Thanks Shizara, I need to keep focused because it seems all our stones have been turned. The last few have not replied so either they don't know/can't be bothered or there's stuff that they have but can't/won't share. Or hopefully, as it is complex, they may be researching it.:) Coutts and Co, definitley have info but they have a stitch-up clause that says they 'don't have to tell if they don't want to and they don't have to tell you why either'. Maybe a step outside the box is required? How would one find out about Nawabs and thier families? The India Office haven't replied at all. There is another web link for thier archives on The BBC 'Who do they think they are' site but it doesn't work.I thought of contacting The Beeb anyway but there's a general 'contact us' link not a specific one.:confused: History has been sort of glossed over and the people it relates to have been dealt a similar treatment. It feels a bit like a crusade now.:D

[Shizara]

Sent you a PM. Will let you know the response if/when I get one.

[Gladys]

Shizara Thank you, I saw that and have replied. I am now in the position where my PM boxes are full and I don't know how to empty them without losing stuff. I've made some folders which has freed up space but I still don't know what to do to save things.Can you direct me please- I know it seems stupid but I am!!!!
Going to listen to NAT now ...:clapping:

[Shizara]

If I need to reduce the size of my message folders and need to keep the contents of any of them I have a folder on my desktop, copy/paste the things I need to save into Notepad and put into the folder. Then I can empty out the message folder thus making space again.

[Gladys]

Thanks Shizara, I'm definitely stupid! Anyway, I've posted a request on The War Ships website. Hopefully some one out there will have some info on M.F.M. Donna Maria(1834) and a bit more direction to find detail on Midshipman William Dawson. :)

[Gladys]

I'm so worried that we are now at 'the wall' and we'll never get the last few vital pieces of info. Where else to look? The India Archives have failed to repsond to my requests from the 3 emails I have sent them. I feel sure the stuff we need is there. How do you find out about Nawabs? Anyone know?:help:

[Gladys]

I may be slightly 'off piste' but this has really raised my suspicions that any records of outcome for Lieut.Col. James, Mooti and thier children may be dubious. I found this at FIBIS today. I thought a while back that if GWD was bron in 1800, that James dying that year was both very sad and premature or untrue especially as the codicile to his will refers to a 2nd daughter McBean in 1871 who must have been an elderly lady then. Things just don't add up but there again they weren't meant.What do you think?
Year of Death 1829
First Names J.
Surname Dalrymple
Date of Death 9 - Jan
IOR Reference None
Source Name East India Register
Source Year 1830
Source Edition 2
Source Presidency Madras
Source Event Death
Entry Lieut.- col. J. Dalrymple, H. M.'s 30th regt.
Transcribed by FIBIS Volunteers

[Gladys]

Hello, I've just had a reply from a chap at APAC British Library, a researcher. He says he can't find anything but did find Lieut.Col.James born to Hew and Dorothea Dalrymple 1758-1804, he was an officer of The Bengal Army but is reported to have died without issue. Not him I know but it goes to show how many Lieut.Col.James Dalrymples we're digging through.(excuse the pun) :p

He didn't really comment on Mooti and the family she may have come from. I think I stumped him.

[Shizara]

I followed up my email enquiry for the will and it seems they have it in their department now, they don't see any problems with copying and will send me an estimate - which, when compared with the cost of train travel will be very little. - See your PMs..

[Gladys]

Its exciting this-- great news. Thank you. :)
I set out with this to lift my Mum in her elderly years as she was faced with a health problem never before having been ill at 88. She was fast declining into a depression. I decided that at her age as some one who had never really known the truth of her origins but had speculated on the 'back stair whispers' that I should try to help 'tie up'these ends. The 'backstair whispers' she recalls were around 'grand maori' origins and an Earl. She never ever knew about Indian Royal connections. I think Granny Agnes knew but never divulged at all, it is possible she didn't know but it was a secret left with GSWD and his Father etc above.I am now left wondering if we actually manage to put all the pieces together, what now? It is a huge story. I'd like to know how we would find out about Mooti's family? I think that may take us on a journey and we haven't even begun the Winters and the Barefoot side of things.(pls excuse spelling mistakes and grammar, I am dyslexic and find doing it right at this time after a hard day of swine flu-just impossible.)

[Shizara]

I received an email from the archivist today and all set to roll on Monday. I doubt they are open tomorrow, though will try, but failing that, Monday will phone and arrange for the copies. There is a document for me to sign regarding the copywrite. I will take whatever details I need from them and you can have the copies, they are your family documents and something precious to have.

[Gladys]

Oh Shizara, I am so filled with excitement about this. Thank you. I'm taking 'Her Royal Highness' to lunch tomorrow and will share this with her then. Thank you.:)

[Gladys]

I have a hunch this link is about Mooti's Father. It gives his wife's name as well.

Nawab Sayyid Ghulam Muhammad Ali Khan I Bahadur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghulam_Muhammad_Ali)

[Shizara]

Your hunch may well be right. Have been browsing through websites I have found about the Nawabs. They make interesting reading.

[Gladys]

I've been trying to unravel them as well. Its more treacle! :)

[Gladys]

I've been speaking tonight with my friends who origionally started to look at my family tree stuff.(That's thier relaxation thing) They are the ones who went off on thier world wide cruise. He asked me tonight if I'd found the cinnection to Mary Queen of Scots- which we haven't but I'm not sure where to look now. Any ideas? He says his searches didn't find Indian ones but he said he went down another branch- not sure which one...:)

[Shizara]

To be honest, I haven't even looked at the Mary Queen of Scots aspect yet. But will get on to that shortly and see what that turns up. In the meantime have spoken to the archivist, made the necessary arrangements and am now awaiting a document I have to sign regarding copywrite. Once that is done and they get it back then the documents we are interested in will be posted.

[Shizara]

Have had a quick look and found this url:

RootsWeb: GENBRIT-L Mary, Queen of Scots descendants (http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/GENBRIT/2000-06/0960348253)

There are truckloads of Dalrymple people in there. I started making a list and thought, crikey, will be here forever. - Giggles

[Gladys]

Blimey- Its a huge task. What has always puzzled me is how and where did the 'Weymss' get added to Dalrymple when :Lieut.Col.James was Dalrymple on his own and Mooti was Indian?
I've been digging again. I looked thru the NAS and fiddled about putting in searches for Mcbean,Watson, Dalrymple and Stair. The Mcbean search gave me 8 items and I think this may be of interest to us- CS 314/675, the Watson search threw up CS314/695. They may not be anything relating to 'our' Watsons but if you have time when you're there, they may be helpful to glance at. Also FOR STAIR SEARCH- legal papers GD135/1608-1776, Also in Stair but under family papers in the Dalrymple file-GD135/2031-2108. I think your time will fly and will be frustrating because you'll want to stay longer to read more.Its exciting except I'm also a bit nervey incase nothing shows. Oh, can't dwell on that. Forward, onward etc ...

[Shizara]

The documents I have ordered are the ones that contain the will for Lieut-Col James Dalrymple and it includes letters from E McBean to her sister and from her sister to another Dalrymple.

[Gladys]

I know-I'm some what scared. Why would a family 'hide' thier children under a pseudonym(not sure about spelling. got probs with that- please forgive me) other than they didn't or couldn't allow discovery? This is evidence to be suspicious.:D
I'm also aware that the Stair papers at The NAS also have those that discussed the change in direction of the line. William, Samuel and John had no issue but I stand to be corrected. If they didn't, James did, so why then didn't his eldest son assume the title?(speling again-doesn't look right) Do you see now why am suspicious? If I still bit my fingernails, I'd be raw by now. It feels as though we're on the very brink of something.

[Gladys]

Have been making enquiries as to where GWD is buried in Paisley. So far nothing has turned up but I feel it will. I was given the Rootschatter's info for MI indices for Paisley. Hopefully she'll have it on there. I've also approached an archivist in Paisley. between them something should show.I'm not sure where GSWD is buried except it is in NZ- the record was registered in 1908 although I found an announcement of his death dated 1907. Back beyond them, I'd guess Lieut.Col. James was buried in India but really am not sure how to exact this. I have taken a step outside the box and emailed the Diocese of Madras to ask if they have any records for his burial(and marriage/baptisms) focusing on St Mary's Church of Madras. This church has a graveyard and holds the remains of many military personel and people of importance. It dates back to 1670 something. Fingers crossed. Shizara may throw more light on the whole thing soon. :D

[Shizara]

Hopefully, yes. Am sorry about the delay have been really busy with work related stuff. As soon as the copywrite document arrives will arrange to go myself to collect the documents we are after rather wait even longer.

[Gladys]

My 'virtual' fingernails are really raw. I wait for the replies (if any) from India and from the archivist in Paisley. I know the latter will reply if even to say he has drawn a blank. Oh, goodness me, this is a whole lot of strudel!!!! Thank you again. I do hope work is eventauly(?spelling-sorry) going to give you a rest.(Not from my stance) I know from Swine Flu, I'm so glad to be on staycation.Since I've been away, this new Pandemic line has opened- Hurray:beerchug::peacefingers:
Just to add that The Rootschatterer with the book of MIs for Paisley pre 1855 has said she'll look this up on her return from her holiday in Australia in the next few weeks. I'm rather touched that she'd respond whilst away. There really are some great people on this planet.Its refreshing.

[Gladys]

I was looking through FIBIS and have found an entry for a Death for a Mrs M Dalrymple on 12/1/1843, aged 55, in Calcutta. Could this be Moti Begum Dalrymple? I also looked a little further at entries for James and there are 2 files which may contain further info about him but they have to be viewed at The British Library. IOR Ref L/MIL/9/107 folio 663 1789-99 and L/MIL/9/109 both are LDS files 1951683. They are relating to his applications for cadetship but contain identities of parents, schooling, birth/baptism and all important possible marriage.:D

[Shizara]

Worked another long one today and when I came home the postie had left a card. Looking at it I see it is a small tube can't think of anything that would come in that unless they have sent all the papers to save the visit. Won't know until I pick it up on the way home tomorrow, but I will keep you updated if it is what I think it might be.

[Gladys]

:new_popcornsmiley::yeahthat::)It's got to be- what a fantastic happening. I was talking to my Mum yesterday; we'd gone to lunch at a local hotel. I was explaining about the little I know about Nawabs- that they came from Persia- The Shahs. She is so very thrilled that if this is true- she had never known any Indian connection at all. It must have stirred memories overnight because at 0910 she was on the phone. She said 'I've remembered when I was bout 10 or 12, my uncle (not sure which one) brought a cricketer home for dinner. Granny insisted he stayed', she recalled his name as 'dulip sinjhi'.She said that he was an Indian Prince. Guy and I looked this up this morning and the India Cricket team in 1932 was Captained by a Maharaja Rana sahib something that could be shortened to Dulip Sinjhi. I still don't think Granny knew the India connection- they just all loved cricket, rugby etc.Mummy still does- horse racing as well. Oh, how exciting this is. Maybe then I should speak to the British Library about these 2 files. I don't know if they will be that helpful though. We'll see. I wait with baited breath. Thank you.:) When are you going to be able to take your break? It is not fair- keep safe and healthy.

[Shizara]

I picked up "the tube" tonight and have had a quick scan through it. Writing is a bit spidery. I need to go through it properly and then either make notes or copy it into easier to read text.

There is also some letters included from Noorjah Begum. I need to carefully pick out the names and relationships.

Noorjah Begum speaks of three brothers and a sister with two of the former dying young. She then speaks of the other and my sister. This would suggest to me that if she had three brothers and a sister, with two of the former dying young, that she is left with one brother and a sister. It also confirms that Noorjah had a sister. It's like a riddle! :rolleyes:

[Gladys]

We've both blown William Dalrymple's writings out then:D I found the reference to McBean from Noorjar. So maybe and hopefully , the brother left is George Weymss-Dalrymple? How sad for them. They are said to have been sent to Scotland to be brought up and educated (again William Dalrymple's writings) - the evidence is they were hidden as 'Watson and McBean' - Shizara- this is it; 2 names- 2 children left other than Noorjar who was still in India.:banana:
I should now say that this is all feeling very wierd. It is as though I am the one who in this family is meant to put things right. I was born in Doha, Qatar. I lived in Benghazi, Libya until I was 7 years old. WE had Libyan 'houseboys'-grown men who 'did'. They were lovely. The one I remember most is Ali- he brought me up rather like a Nanny would. I met his wife and children many times.I learnt to speak alongside learning arabic and english. The arabic was through these people my parents employed. My Father spoke it fluently. I can't speak it these days but on holidays away and if I hear it, I seem to know what is being said - a funny fizz thing goes on at the back of my head. Ali was a kind and gentle man. This is getting more and more spookey.

[Gladys]

I just got a call from an Imam in Worthing- a very nice chap- Imam Idris Nawab. He says he has a friend who is a Dr in Wiltshire from Madras and he's going to ask him how to access muslim BDMs there. He's also asking a few other Imams.:)

[Shizara]

I have decided to type out the will so reading it isn't such hard going although I will give you the handwritten copies with it for comparison. The downside of the transcribing to computer text is I might not get it all done tonight as there are quite a few pages to it but it will be worth the effort. I need to do some Google searching to get a few names right. Some are a little hard to make out but I get the gist of them.

[Gladys]

Shizara, you are going beyond all- you are amazing to be doing this to this extreme. I was talking to my Mum today and she has been thinking about things to the point where over the last 2 days she hasn't slept. She looks extremely tired. She says she remembers conversations. The one with her Uncle 'BudgeFitzherbert' he said 'your Grandmother is keeping us poor'. She later found out, he'd gambled much of her G'Father's firms profit away and had kept his wife- her Aunt May in virtual poverty. I think great skullduggery has happened in more recent times like thiers. This Indian history wasn't known to anyone except Agnes, Emily, John and thier Father GSWD.I don't know how to move this on. It is vital we prove James married Moti or that he didn't even and also the real names/identities of all the children.
Don't you think that was fantastic that the Imam rang me back with great interest and support?:)

[Shizara]

This is taking some digesting. As I read a bit and compare other notes a picture is beginning to form. Many times you have asked about the connection between the names Wemyss and Dalrymple. Well, I think the answer to that is staring us right in the face.

Wemyss Dalrymple is the sister of Lieut-Col James Dalrymple. She married Leveson Granville Keith Murray and this is verified in the will. Wemyss Murray nee Dalrymple was involved with the school that the children, educated under the name of Watson, were sent to. Wemyss Murray nee Dalrymple died c1802. I think that Lieut-Col James Dalrymple held her in such high esteem that he immortalised that esteem by giving the name Wemyss to his son, George Wemyss Dalrymple, who in turn, has passed it on his son George Samuel Wemyss Dalrymple and he followed that tradition by naming his son John George Wemyss Dalrymple.

[Gladys]

How clever you are to have worked that out.Was that Jane Weymss?We haven't even really looked at her. Do you know the name of the school? Even more so what the childrens' names were? Is there an actual date,place of birth/death for James and or the children? I am so confused by this family more because you see traits that follow through and they are here in my family in the present day-I was brought up and educated completely seperate to my own Brother. My Mum was the youngest child of 4, she was definitely seperate from the older 3. The 2 older boys took control when the parents failed. Thier Father as the eldest of Agnes and John Hankins did also. :)

[Shizara]

Jane Weymss is none other than Jane Wemyss Murray, daughter of Wemyss Dalrymple and Leveson Granville Keith Murray. So that would make her a cousin to the children of Lieut-Col James Dalrymple.

The school, so far, is only referred to as Mrs Murray's School at Madras.

Some of the writing is decipherable and some words are difficult to work out so am trying to research them at the same time.

The children seem to only be referred to as 2 children by the name of Watson, however, later in the will it speaks of the youngest son of Mooti Begum, named Dowood or Dourood or Durood who was to be sent to Madras and educated in the same manner as the other two children named Watson and that he was to be provided for in exactly the same way, in fact, he made provision for Mooti and the children as well as his servants.

[Shizara]

Clearly, Lieut-Col James Dalrymple's siblings knew about the children and who they were.

It certainly appears that cholera claimed quite a few of them including the husband of Noorjah Begum, Mr McBean.

E. McBean says in her letter to Noorjah that she was also a widow and with 5 children to raise. She gives a name, presumably the youngest. Kitty Lee, who at the time was 6 years of age and the letter appeared to be written in 1823.

Noorjah's letter mentions her brother taking on his father's name - presumably Dalrymple. He apparently was sent there by the Executors of the will.

Noorjah's husband, according the letter is Sardue or Sadhu Bing. He died in 1811. It would seem that she remarried as she signed herself as Noorah Begum, widow of somebody else, a name that I am currently trying to decipher.

[Shizara]

Each snippet of information is like a piece from an enormous jigsaw puzzle and each of those pieces has a place, though that might not seem significant at the time. Answers can take a while to find and sometimes it means we are digging around an answer for clues but I do understand the frustration in the interim.

[Gladys]

This is truely fascinating, Shizara. Although I can see where deciphering these writings may at times present some confusion.
' It certainly appears that cholera claimed quite a few of them including the husband of Noorjah Begum, Mr McBean.

E. McBean says in her letter to Noorjah that she was also a widow and with 5 children to raise. She gives a name, presumably the youngest. Kitty Lee, who at the time was 6 years of age and the letter appeared to be written in 1823'

I'm wondering if Mr McBean is not Noorjar's husband but that of her sister E.McBean and the relationship is infered by a title of 'sister-in-law' as we would now describe some one. It would be helpful to see if anywhere there are actual names for the children other than Noorjar and this young son ' Durwood' etc
Does it say what James died from and the actual date, What he asks to done with his mortal remains etc? This is just amazing.

[Shizara]

Amazing, fascinating and intriguing. I am seeing a story unravel before my eyes. Am just having a break from trying to decipher. There are a lot of Indian names in the will and I am looking things up as I go to try and figure out what they might be. Amongst the Indian names in the will seem to be same Indian names for the children.

At first I read through the document and picked up bits of detail but finding it more productive to read / transcribe / research in the order that the information appears. It takes longer but you get a much more indepth picture of what is going on.

A question I can answer from the letters is that Noorjah Begam is the sister of E. McBean. Finding out her proper name is a challenge, but am reckoning on it being out there somewhere. Also, until I find any evidence to the contrary am considering the likelihood that E. McBean is her sister rather than sister-in-law, but am happy to change that if I find evidence that supports it.

[Shizara]

As for the cause of death for Lieut-Col James Dalrymple, the will doesn't say and neither does it say what his will was for his remains though I daresay, by the time I finish transcribing there may well be a few clues that will enable us to search further.

- Exciting stuff this is.

[Gladys]

Oh gosh- you must have eye ache by now. I have been trawling through the BACS for India- I thinks that's what it's called. It is a list of all decipherable inscriptions for Army graves and monuments in INdia. The only Dalrymples I have found are:-
St John's Church on the Black Hole Memorial- ' Dalrymple ???AIR, Died June 1756 at Fort William, Calcutta'
At St Paul's Cathedral on the Dalrymple Monument 3 entries:-
Jessie
Richard Died 1/05/1894 Born 1820
Charlotte Helen Died 8/03/1883 Born 1826
I did find the Lieut.Col.James Kirkpatrick mentioned in William Dalrymple's writings.
It all makes me think that James may have written this when in reasonabley good health by way of getting his house in order in preparation for his death when ever that may be. I think I read he wrote it when in Hyder ALi when held captive or was that a letter to his Mother? Yes, I think it was the latter but still there is this sense of him realising the need to make provision for with out it, I can't help wondering what may have become of his family :eek:
It makes me also wonder how the Will made its way to England or rather scotland? How and when the children eventually ended up there as the Will indicates they were educated in Madras? The Will is giving so much info and then so many more questions following on. Oh my , it is exciting, I am so intrigued.
I quickly looked at Muslim boys names- all of the variants you have proposed are possibilities.
Da'wud- name of a prophet, Daud, or Dawud- means beloved- the name of the prophet David, Dawid means Prince and Dawoud is also a prophet's name.
Following on from the fact the Will isn't dated other than I assume it says 1800? Being suspicious again-What if James didn't actually die then but this was 'an incase and in readiness' document?I found an entry for a death in The India Office at BL for lieut.Col James Dalrymple H.M.'s 30th Regiment 09/01/1829 in Madras. no ref just source edition 2. Food for thought.

[Shizara]

This makes interesting, but sad reading. It gives us a bit more understanding on how things were in those times.

A tale of doomed love| Showbiz | This is London (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/showbiz/review-1820260-details/A+tale+of+doomed+love+/review.do?reviewId=1820260)

I see mention of Kitty Kirkpatrick.

[Gladys]

Yes, this must be the Lieut.Col. James Kirkpatrick's MI I found. Except, Its not 'our kitty' but another one because if she was only 6yrs at the time of the letter, its got to be a different one. I'm being dim of course - its a different Kitty.
Just letting you know that 'The swine Flu in' - I'm at home with some of the symptoms, one of which is fuddleness which if you're already of the same pursuasion doesn't help. The symptoms are really very mild so I should (God willing) make a full recovery without Tamiflu/Relenza !

[Shizara]

The "Kitty" in that url is Katherine Aurora .. whereas the "Kitty" that we are looking for is Kitty Lee.

There is likely a lot more out there with swine flu. Many will continue to go to work because they will be clobbered with attendance procedures when they return. A nasty procedure that companies abuse. It is meant to pick up patterns in absenteeism not clobber the genuinely ill and make them feel guilty for having an unacceptable attendance record and causing inconvenience to the company, customers, work associates etc etc.

Make the most of your time off to rest and take care of yourself... and watch this space of course.

[Gladys]

Thank you Shizara, I am watching with baited breath, As for the swine Flu, The Regional Big Boss based at our place saw me looking 'green around the gills' as I'd just vomited. She drove me home and we go from there. I was only vomiting at that point, I managed not to do so in her car! My car is stillthere 30 miles away.The other symptoms set in later that day- yesterday.(Freezing chills, temperature, diarrhoea, cough with upper back pain, tiredness,fuddledness loss of appetite) Strangely enough, I feel better this evening and am supposed to be at work tomorrow but I'll stay off to get rid of the whole lot.Fuddlesness seems to reign supreme, no headache maybe just a dull ache now and again- did have a daggers in the head 15 minutes this morning but I have to say this is really mild for flu. I've had seasonal flu when I was 17, I saw 'things' felt I was dying and actually thought (momentarily) if i was to, 'Hurry up'!!!

[Shizara]

Crikey, I hope by today you are showing signs of improvement. Flu, by any name, is nasty to have.

A bit of reading for you. I suggest you make yourself a drink and settle back. It has a lot of detail in it and whilst it doesn't contain information on Lieut-Col James Dalrymple it has a considerable amount of background on his ancestry including the fact that he had more brothers and sisters than we seem to know about.

Dalrymple (http://www.electricscotland.com/history/nation/dalrymple.htm)

Have done a little more on the transcribing this morning. One of the things that surprised me is the leaving of his house to his friend rather than Mooti, but perhaps as I continue on it will make more sense.

Clearly not short of money he also left his servants provided for. Leaving 3 months wages to all of them and 500 Star Pagodas to his principle servant as a reward for his long service. - I have added a note regarding Star Pagodas on the transcription.

Once I have finished and you have both the documents and the transcription it should make reading easier.

[Gladys]

Crumbs Shizara, I read about Star Pagodas yesterday. (Mal varagama in Sinhala)
In 1796 the xchange rate for them was 1 star pagoda against 45 fanams and in 1819 1 star pagoda was worth 8 shillings. In 1999 2 coins were sold on EBAY? How much.
I've been thinking about why James didn't give his house to Moti and maybe which might become apparent later, if she was from a royal family herself, she would have her own income etc. If he described her as his 'domestic' perhaps being ' kept' was not deemed respectable and that was his way of preserving her status, dignity etc. Perhaps if he had undergone a muslim marriage that was not recognised and so he had to refer to her as such for his British relatives. It is exciting though.
I'm alot better Thanks but getting cabin fever now :D

[Gladys]

Hello Shizara, I've talked to my Mum about all of this - she's equally gobsmacked. Her Granny never said anything. Anyway, having had no response from the India Archives email I constructed a letter which Mum endorsed hoping they might reply. Thier website is rubbish and the email address is doubtful. Who knows!!!! Anyway, I do think the way forward is through India. I think this is where William Dalrymple (author) has found his sources even though we have found them to be slightly wrong. I still think as it is reported that 1 in 3 men married an Indian woman who was usually Muslim, that man usually converted to Islam. I know from readings that only significant people's Muslim marriages would have been recorded. James as the son of The Earl of Stair is certainly significant but Moti- if she was a daughter of a Nawab would be as well. Fingers crossed-God Willing.:)

[Shizara]

Have finished transcribing the Will and am just trying to find a full name for some initials then I will put it with the other things for you.

[Shizara]

You're getting good at the detective work and your Mum's mind must be absolutely buzzing each time you leave her with gems of information.

It is seldom an easy ride to finding answers but each positive answer makes the hunt more furtive.

[Gladys]

Hello Shizara, the somewhere thingy is not happening. Its decided to not work. Any ideas?:D
I've done it- Its quite an amazing jigsaw puzzle- so many names etc.What now? I'm shocked. Need to know the Watson mystery. Perhaps Mrs Murray's school records hold the answer except I don't think they'll be available any more. I can't find the School as I've been trawling through. It was the practice of the time to open a school and this was without regulation. Many people did it. I saw at The NAS that Leveson Murray wrote 2 letters from Madras I think about schools but to a Mrs Mckenzie I think it was. Will have to check that again. So Noorjar and Durood are the eldest and youngest. The Watsons are in beween them? twins? Why are they referred to as Watson? It is so strange.So does this mean the Watson girl child grew up to be McBean? Why does James refer to his sister ' Hon mrs Murray' when he himself is not seen as Sir? There's so much to this. If she is Hon. then he would be Sir. The Hon. doesn't come from her husband as he would then be a Sir and she would be Lady.
Nas ref RH2/8/23 1765-1811 may be a good read!!! Thank you again Shizara.
Rootschatter KirstyG has said Shaha Zadah may mean son of a king. ' Shah is persian for King/Ruler
Zadah is Son ' she's going to confirm it later. Infact from the little I read on Wikepaedia about shah etc. it is a term used for the males of a rulers bloodline- thier descendants. If this is the case it seems to confirm Moti's royal descent.
I've also been thinking more about James' bequest to Moti. It is infact a rather subtle way of making his family acknowledge her throughout her life and thiers because they will have to ensure the payments to her of the star pagodas. It is a nominal payment in the light she was his wife. I also do think I may be right as to why he didn't leave the house to her but I stand to be corrected.
I had another influx of logic. If James has made bequests in SPs and Stirling, the reasons are staring us in the face. SPs were paid to those who were living in India or going between Scotland and India at least and Stirling paid to those who remain in Scotland. Perhaps a closer search of passenger lists or immigration may help follow movements? The trouble is I don't know how far back they do go.

[Gladys]

Just got a reply from the lovely Librarian at Palmerston North in response to my Thanks for todays's package. I asked her if there were any records as to where GSWD is buried. She replied in Masterton but unsure where but will help to look. She gave me a link which should have photos of him but I do not seem to be able to get them to work- hey ho- carry on. Its fabulous with all of these people so interested and helping. See Wairarapa Archive (http://www.library.mstn.govt.nz/archive.html) :) Wairarapa Archive (http://www.library.mstn.govt.nz/archive.html)

[Gladys]

The Librarian's link to the picture of John George Weymss-Dalrymple has finally opened. He was in The Masterton Rifles. The Army theme carries on. He was a very handsome man and was blond! That's got to be part of where my Daughter's blondness and fair skin has come from.:yippee:

[Gladys]

Dear Shizara, I must tell you I gave Mum a copy of your transcript this morning. She read it with great intent and with a smile on her face. I think it sort of made it even more real for her- Thank You. On from that I then sat her down infront of the computer and brought up the picture of her great uncle John George Weymss-Dalrymple- she literally beamed. She'd never met him let alone seen a picture of him and she kept saying I can see Granny- he's got the same eyes. Hers were apparently a piercing blue colour. She went off home armed with the copy and the package sent from Palmerston North Library quite clearly more than happy with the day thus far.:clapping:

[Gladys]

Hello, I must say I've been feeling somewhat lost since Tuesday's events. I was looking through FIBIS stuff today and found the following info;_
Notice of Death for Hon. Mrs Murray, wife of Hon. Keith Murray in East Indies - 25-12-1804. That is rather premature I think. There are also records of movements of HDE Dalrymple to and from India. He is entered as 'Mr' so we know that much. Just not sure who he is. McBean wrote to him didn't she?

[Gladys]

Rootschatter tells me The Hin Mrs Murray didn't get over the birth of her daughter Jane. Jane married twice. I have no idea about her sources but this is so very sad. Weymss Murray died on Christmas day- how do you get over that? :sad:

[Gladys]

Dear Shizara, I really have been feeling very flat since the revellation of your transcript.That is that at the best, James was a decent man and bound by the law, dictates of his time. He sought to provide for all he cared for.It has left me flat because it has made me realise that since him, it really doesn't seem that any of his offspring have done the same for thier own. Its not all about inheritance but heritage- they didn't pass it on. I really can tell by the NZ history stuff that there is next to nothing about them. JGWD in the Mounted Rifles- that is all wrongly referenced. He would be the last line from James from what we know. We still haven't found out who GWD was:- either Durood or a Watson and who was McBean? It does seem she was the girl Watson.
My Mum is such an amazing lady, so aristocratic in her own way- a lady. Elegant,charming, intelligent; she'd whip any 'stupid' man into touch verbally!!!!
I take those qualities from her. The only thing she says she didn't get was 'street wise and present day where with all'.Anyway, I don't quite know where to go now except I can't stop. Any news on The McBean/Noorjar letters?:)

[Shizara]

Am so sorry, I haven't meant to neglect the transcriptions but have been busy with work again.. we have some union stuff going on at the moment so it has been diverting my attention. Will likely be able to get back on to it tomorrow.

I'm so glad that all these revelations are giving your mother so much to think about, remember and ponder upon.

It's hard when there are times that you feel flat. Some days the news comes tumbling in and other days the searches continue and you hear nothing and feel down about it all. Then, along comes something else.

[Gladys]

Oh Dear Shizara, I don't mean to be pressuring you. I'm sorry if the reply reads like that. I am still amazed at this heritage. It really seems that Granny Agnes either didn't know it all or didn't mention it. Either which way, I have found that her Husband JH Hankins was obviously well placed in New Zealand life as you have said. I think he featured so prominently,Somehow, she seems to have been in his background. The Law firm doesn't even have her name right. She's been recorded as Agnes Eleanor Dalrymple. If they didn't have it right - goodness knows who else has got her wrong. Hoepfully not too many people. I have asked them to correct the entry and gave her DOB and origin etc. I think tht's only right for posterity's sake, don't you?
I'm not sure where to go next but Christian's Annals at the NAS may yield more info re: Watsons etc. I can't find a Will for JAne Murray but there is one at NA for LGK Murray. :)

[Gladys]

:D I've solved the Midshipman William Dawson bit of the story. He was married to Isabella; GWD's step-Daughter. GWD's wife Eliza Thomson-Hall had been married before to a Captain Dawson whose christian name was possibley Reid but its hard to read. They were divorced at some point. Hence Isabella was GSWD's older half-sister :) After more thought- Did Isabella Dawson marry a man with the same name; midshipman Dawson except the entry after her name says a word beginning with 'W' but it is hard to decipher.She is listed as child of Eliza and her 1st husband Captain Dawson.
Finding GWD's last resting place is prooving very difficult. I'm not really suprised about that especially as Eliza is recorded by Scotland's People's BDM's as Eliza Dalrymple but her other names are given as Dawson Hall. Where the Thompson Hall has come from, I really don't know but it is clearly Thompson-Hall in GWD's Will. She's buried at Sighthill Cemetary, Glasgow. She was registered as living there for 7 months prior to her death which was 11th April 1855. She died of Apoplexy and something I couldn't decipher. Her address was given as what looks like 14 Holmestead Street, Glasgow. This street has since been renamed Cunningham Street.GSWD was the informant.Thankfully,the Cemetary still exists.
I have also established that John George Weymss-Dalrymple; Agnes Sophia's younger brother had issue. The worrying thing is it seems as though he is shown to have married a Mary Ann ?Thoreton(may have that bit wrong)Dalrymple. I have a record of him marrying Amelia Ann Cook in 1916. I perhaps need to look for a divorce for them. Amelia Dalrymple died in 1958.

[Shizara]

Bah.. The week got away on me!

I have finished transcribing the 2 letters. Just like the will there are words I couldn't decipher, especially the Indian words which is why it would be helpful for you to have the documents I have here.

So, if you go to the place I have been putting them for you they will be there.

[Shizara]

I have some data on John George Wemyss Dalrymple, though you may have seen it already:

Embarkation database - NZ in the South African ('Boer') War

John George Wemyss Dalrymple
Reg No: 0
SURNAME: Dalrymple
GIVEN NAMES: John George Wemyss
UNIT: North Island Regiment - Regimental staff
RANK: Honorary Captain and Quartermaster
CONTINGENT: Tenth
SHIP: Drayton Grange 14 April 1902
OCCUPATION: engineer
COUNTY/CITY: masterton
ADDRESS: Masterton
NEXT of KIN: Dalrymple, Mrs Daisy
NEXT of KIN ADDRESS: Same
RELATIONSHIP to SOLDIER: Wife

Daughter:
DALRYMPLE, Valerie Ethel Wemyss on 04-Nov-1909
of: Kelburn
Born: 23-Dec-1895
Father: John George Wemyss
Mother: Daisy Emily Maud Bertha Wemyss
Officiating Minister: AWH Compton

[Shizara]

Aww, you are not pressuring me at all, so have no concerns there. Have just had a particularly busy week this week on the work front. But, a couple of days off and I am catching up on the things I want to be doing. This mystery tour is so amazing and as each page unfolds it drives you on to the next. Just like reading a captivating novel, except, this is real life.

[Gladys]

Shizara, Thank you again.These letters need some digesting. It seems then that my hunch was right that, GWD was a 'Watson' except who was E McBean? That's going to take some digging- probabley India next stop.Perhaps a search for Kitty Lee McBean? I'm tinged with a sadness for Noorjah as she writes asking for help in 1870. Her brother was long dead and his own son was hot footing it out to NZ with his own grown-up children; Agnes,Emily,John. It makes me wonder if GWD ever looked back or was allowed to.How much did he remember of his siblings and Mother? More questions with more answers to find.I wonder about 'the several letters' still not copied and Christian's annals. More digging. I'm certain this has to be made into something except where to start I really don't know. There are so many layers to it which all intertwine.(1870 Noorjah in India, GSWD in NZ- whacky) India had undergone a huge transformation in the time since 1800. As the Union with James and Mooti was not recognised by the British establishment,I fear Noorjah's pleas were unheard. I can't bear that. Its cruel.:crying: What had LGK Murray been up to I wonder? Weymss Murray again was long gone. (1804) Murky water to wade through some where.:(

[Shizara]

I agree, there is much more information out there and it is a matter of perseverance and patience. Both of which you seem to have.

[Gladys]

I've had to learn patience. It wasn't a class I got to much when younger :D Seriously though, This story is amazing. I'm well and truely gobsmacked from many elements of it. I still have this vision of Noorjah alone in India with her children of course but they would be grown-ups then. She was holding her hands out- its so sad. I have noted many of HDE Dalrymple's movements. He went back and forth regularly.It would seem a reasonable request except that Noorjah was searching for people she'd never met and wouldn't know the names of. Its so sad. What is more they as I said GSWD was already on his way to NZ so HDE Dalrymple if he did know of the story from GWD etc wouldn't have found him easily.

[Gladys]

:blink::) Guess what? I've got a rootscahtter in Morbihan,L'Orient who has just messaged me in french to say he/she has discovered a grave for General Samuel Dalrymple there. He/She is wanting to know whythe Dalrymples were there? I must say it's a question we have asked too. He or she has said the Messrs Besne et Hebert were rich 'negociants'. I've asked ' negotiating what to who about what etc?' This is really sureal.

[Gladys]

I need to say that a very clever couple we know said tonight that 'Wat' means citizen in old times speak and is a very common name in Scotland. It seems right then if you want to hide people to call them 'Wat' and then 'son' son of a citizen.:yippee:

see Nécrologe de 1832 ou notices ... - Google Books (http://books.google.com/books?id=zW4OAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=NECROLOGE+DE+1832#v=onepage&q=page%2095&f=false) page 95 re: gen Sam Dalrymple's obituary. He too seems to have been well thought of.

[Shizara]

It's such an intriguing story and the path of which you need to document for yourselves and future generations.

I had a thought..

Taken from that url about GSW Dalrymple in NZ was the last line which read..

" He has in his possession a most interesting collection of old family papers and relics."

Have you been able to get near to those? If not, I wonder who has them, perhaps they went to his son, but equally it could have been the eldest, Agnes. They might hold the answers to many things.

[Gladys]

I haven't a clue where to begin with that.
Mum says of Gen Sam Dalrymple- 'that's the painting- it was of him in scarlet coat with white wig'.If she's right, he was also Governor Gen of Giyana(?spelling) it doesn't exist now- name change to something else. Apparently a Dr she used to work with here in the 1980S was from there and he said there's a statue of him there.

[Shizara]

With regard to Samuel Dalrymple and a statue in Guyana I did find this:

"......an urn-like sculpture that (William) Dalrymple says commemorates a distant kinsman. Lt. Col. Sam Dalrymple of the Madras Artillery is remembered in this sometimes cared for, sometimes untended memorial built in 1821/2"

[Gladys]

You are clever. What a strange thing to say though- 'distant relative...'' Shizara please see your pms.

[Shizara]

I checked my PMs and have responded to the message.

Not clever so much as following hunches and searching particular paths.

[Gladys]

Still, you are clever, I just wouldn't believe what I was seeing/reading -save for the support.:)

[Gladys]

Have a look at this- it belonged to Miss Christian Dalrymple.
Newhailes Feature Page on Undiscovered Scotland (http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/musselburgh/newhailes/index.html)

[Gladys]

Have a look at this. I have said before my Mum keeps going on about 'General Dalrymple'. She says she thinks the errant oil painting was of him. She has also said he was Governer General of Guyana. The strangest thing today at work now makes me believe she's on the right family thread. My colleague of 7 years is of Indian extract. I asked her today which part of India her family come from. She replied her husband's lot come from Madras but she is 4th generation Guyanian. I told her my Mum keeps saying there is a statue of her Great (x4) uncle there; General Samuel and she said she knew there was. She also asked me was I 'James' relative?'- how bazaar is that?
Guyana (http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Guyana.htm) have a look at 1810

[Shizara]

Have been looking for the statue/memorial/plaque of Samuel Dalrymple and if I haven't already shown it to you I came up with:

While in Madras, Dalrymple didn't find the time to follow up his Pondicherry connection,
but he did catch up with a Madras connection on his way to the airport. Between Kathipara Junction and Mohite Stadium on the Great Southern Trunk Road in St. Thomas' Mount is that connection, a cupola over an urn-like sculpture that Dalrymple says commemorates a distant kinsman. Lt. Col. Sam Dalrymple of the Madras Artillery is remembered in this sometimes cared for, sometimes untended memorial built in 1821/2. St. Thomas' Mount Cantonment was for long the regimental centre of the Madras Artillery and today's Mohite Stadium here was yesterday's artillery park. What is now the Officers' Mess of the Officers' Training Academy was built in 1815 and served for over a hundred years as the Officers' Mess of the Madras Artillery. If he'd had more time, Dalrymple might well have caught up with the ghost of Great `Uncle' Sam and the grave of his wife Margaret, who is described by Mountstuart Elphinstone in the book as "an affected, sour, supercilious woman" and `odious' by another contemporary.

[Gladys]

Well I never. I'm unsure how WD (author) is connected. I was wondering if he is descended from Noorjah or McBean. We are fairly certain now he isn't from GWD. as GSWD's children are listed. I haven't found another child from GWD except for Eliza's daughter from Captain Dawson. So there's a statue of Gen Samuel in Madras but there is also one of him in Guyana where he was Governor General.
I've had another 'worrying' discovery. I've found that Dame Ann, James and Samuel's mother having had the other children, may have had them by another father.William 3rd Bart. died in 1771 if I read it properly.(Stirnet-it interrupts you're reading unless you're a member) Maybe that is why they are not mentioned in her Will except for Simon who was only 10 or so when she died. I do wonder how old she was when she had him. Its very strange. More questions as I said. What do you think?