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jobee
11-01-2007, 04:06 PM
Should Churches Pay Taxes?
Politicking from the pulpit would not bother me nearly as much if the religions paid taxes. Why should the income of a priest or rabbi etc be exempt from income tax? Why should religions be allowed to acquire massive amounts of land and of shares of stock etc without being taxed. That was part of the problem that led to the bloody French revolution. How is it different now if we have a class of people (clergy) who have the same privileges that the European clergy had in 1795?

Will
11-01-2007, 11:10 PM
I'd love to comment on this subject, but I don't know enough about the ins and outs of it to be honest. I suppose a lot of it comes down to whether they are non-profit organisations or not. If it can be proved that they are, then you may very well have a point.

ronlyre
11-01-2007, 11:30 PM
clergy are taxed

jobee
12-01-2007, 10:41 AM
clergy are taxed

could you prove that ron-:help:

jobee
12-01-2007, 11:01 AM
clergy are taxed

A confusing picture is emerging-in some countries they get away scot free
others they are partially taxed-here is an american friend talking-


"No but Churches do and preacher live in parsonages[the houses that they live in] that pay no property tax, so yes they proffit."

with permission

chillitt
12-01-2007, 11:13 AM
hell yes! tax the graveyards as commercial land, give gordon his slice of the collections, he needs it more than most! the church could easily make up the money from bumping up the rent on their tennant farmers, they are rolling in it.. or they could sell advertising space on war memorial, or do sponsored hymms or prayers, 'give us, this day, or daily bread, freshly baked in store...etc' . rather than having diocese and parish, the whole thing could be set up as a franchise, with vicars bidding to get a contract for a parish,they could have ley preachers covering out of hours work, could be a real money spinner.
or not!

jobee
12-01-2007, 03:59 PM
hell yes! tax the graveyards as commercial land, give gordon his slice of the collections, he needs it more than most! the church could easily make up the money from bumping up the rent on their tennant farmers, they are rolling in it.. or they could sell advertising space on war memorial, or do sponsored hymms or prayers, 'give us, this day, or daily bread, freshly baked in store...etc' . rather than having diocese and parish, the whole thing could be set up as a franchise, with vicars bidding to get a contract for a parish,they could have ley preachers covering out of hours work, could be a real money spinner.
or not!


it cost me 18 just to have a look round westminster abbey- this religion/god
thing sure is a 'nice little earner'

ronlyre
12-01-2007, 05:43 PM
I was, in the early 90's an Anglican Priest (CofE). I quit because I lost my faith and was becoming more and more disatisfied with the mysterious workings of the Church of England. I just have to say that Jobee is writing the usual uninformed ill educated rubbish that I have come to expect from a no-brainer who has no idea what he is talking about and hasn't bothered to research. I say all this because although I have no truck with the Church now, I left behind some amazingly dedicated men and women who put quite simply put a big mouth like Jobee to shame. Men and women who for hardly any money live and work on the front line working with those who have, for whatever reason no hope.
Sure, The Church has a lot of land, especially the Roman Catholic Church and religion has a lot to answer for historicaly and the present day, but if you'd met the people I had Jobee, maybe you wouldn't spend your time making crass and ignorant comments about clergy tax or come to think of it writing crap 'poetry'. No, I take that back, let's face it you'd carry on as 'normal'.

chillitt
12-01-2007, 06:34 PM
er Ron, i was being sarcastic...:o hence the ' or not' at the end...
my honest opinion is jobbee has an axe to grind, and no idea what to do about it so he complains about religion every chance he gets. i thought my previous thread was ridiculous enough to show i didn't actually mean a word of it. sadly in these modern times, it seems nothing is too stupid... sorry for any offence caused. (and please dont put me in the same frame as jobbee, it scares me..)

jobee
12-01-2007, 07:59 PM
I was, in the early 90's an Anglican Priest (CofE). I quit because I lost my faith and was becoming more and more disatisfied with the mysterious workings of the Church of England. I just have to say that Jobee and Chillit are writing the usual uninformed ill educated rubbish that I have come to expect from no-brainers who have no idea what they are talking about. It's not even a point of view, has no humour and really is an attack on something they haven't bothered to research. I say all this because although I have no truck with the Church now, I left behind some amazingly dedicated men and women who put big mouths like Jobee and Chillit to shame. Men and women who for hardly any money live and work on the front line working with those who have, for whatever reason no hope.
Sure, The Church has a lot of land, especially the Roman Catholic Church and religion has a lot to answer for historicaly and the present day, but if you'd met the people I had Chillit and Jobee, maybe you wouldn't spend your time making crass and ignorant comments about war memorials, clergy tax or writing crap 'poetry'. No, I take that back, let's face it you'd carry on as 'normal'.

YES I agree Ron-the church hiarchy could certainly out yak-yak-yak most of us- The trouble is -whilst they we're out 'yakking' us we endured the worst
century for violence in living memory including two A bomb attacks-meaning-
they are not changing human nature at all-indeed- their yak-yak-yak about
the existence of a heavenly paradise[lords prayer et cetera] is causing
young people around the world to blow themselves up- and that big prat 'the
pope' really believes he's gods number 2 on earth- i'd have that twerp in for
for psychiatric treatment NOW- i know the pope is a professor but he's spent his time reading 2000 year old crap-meaning-he is a professor of crap-:help:

ronlyre
12-01-2007, 10:09 PM
chillit please accept my apologies. Ron.

chillitt
12-01-2007, 10:20 PM
no worries Ron, its my sense of humour at fault!:)

Shizara
12-01-2007, 11:11 PM
chillit, you have a superb sense of humour - don't lose it. I enjoyed putting the tale of the Old Cap'n Blue together with you. Throughout the tale your sense of humour just bubbled along.

optrex
13-01-2007, 03:13 PM
could you prove that ron-:help:

I just missed out on the first topic you posted :p

I really cannot understand why you dont join a religon based forum. Lets be honest here, you may have feelings about the subject, but its clear you dont know anything about how it works in the UK. Quoting US sources (and in many cases just forwarding their comments) has little to do with the way it works over here.

If you are going to argue the point, at least do some reseach and give us a REAL argument, instead of spouting crap.


Ministers of any church get a salary, (or stipend) that is Income Taxed, they buy goods and food, both of which are subject to Value Added Tax. If they drive they are subjec to Road Tax and Fuel Tax, same with gas and electric.

Of course they are Taxed, we ALL are! :banghead3:

jobee
14-01-2007, 10:35 AM
[QUOTE=optrex;4361]I just missed out on the first topic you posted :p

I really cannot understand why you dont join a religon based forum. Lets be honest here, you may have feelings about the subject, but its clear you dont know anything about how it works in the UK. Quoting US sources (and in many cases just forwarding their comments) has little to do with the way it works over here.

If you are going to argue the point, at least do some reseach and give us a REAL argument, instead of spouting crap.


Ministers of any church get a salary, (or stipend) that is Income Taxed, they buy goods and food, both of which are subject to Value Added Tax. If they drive they are subjec to Road Tax and Fuel Tax, same with gas and electric.

jb
Obviously you did not observe what the american said about property- like that monstrosity cov catherdral which is used to pray to a 'non existent god'
do you think they should go for psychiatric treatment-

its also interesting what ron said about religion thus

"I was, in the early 90's an Anglican Priest (CofE). I quit because I lost my faith and was becoming more and more disatisfied with the mysterious workings of the Church of England."

The mystery being praying to nothing-:beerchug:

Madhatter
15-01-2007, 04:41 PM
Sorry, I don't agree that he's a no brainer, I think he has a lot of interesting points that may or may not be correct.
They are without doubt views shared by many people in the world.

Re:tax
I don't know how the churches manage to maintain such expensive buildings and pay wages for people to live.
Churches are some of the most magnificent buildings in this country, real buildings not girders and concrete with fake bricks. You use one of the most contraversial churches as an example, I use St pauls, london or the anglican at liverpool. The anglican costs a fortune each day never mind over a year. So what would happen to these buildings which are far more than churches, they are beautiful magnificent works of art, History, tributes to great people who designed them, and to the many who payed for them and built them.

A religion based forum would have him banned before his second post lol .

Leofric
15-01-2007, 07:32 PM
I just missed out on the first topic you posted :p

I really cannot understand why you dont join a religon based forum. Lets be honest here, you may have feelings about the subject, but its clear you dont know anything about how it works in the UK. Quoting US sources (and in many cases just forwarding their comments) has little to do with the way it works over here.

If you are going to argue the point, at least do some reseach and give us a REAL argument, instead of spouting crap.


Ministers of any church get a salary, (or stipend) that is Income Taxed, they buy goods and food, both of which are subject to Value Added Tax. If they drive they are subjec to Road Tax and Fuel Tax, same with gas and electric.

Of course they are Taxed, we ALL are! :banghead3:

You are wrong. Religions don't pay income tax, corporation tax or capital gains tax on their income.

This is because they are "charities" and one of the criteria for being a charity is the "advancement of religion" which includes preserving religious places.

They should be taxed like any other business IMHO. To think the state actually allows people who spread superstition, racism and homophobic views is bad enough. That they get financial benefits is disgusting.

jobee
15-01-2007, 08:02 PM
You are wrong. Religions don't pay income tax, corporation tax or capital gains tax on their income.

This is because they are "charities" and one of the criteria for being a charity is the "advancement of religion" which includes preserving religious places.

They should be taxed like any other business IMHO. To think the state actually allows people who spread superstition, racism and homophobic views is bad enough. That they get financial benefits is disgusting.

Thank you leofric-the voice of TRUTH and reality-indeed- a breath of fresh air
on this forum where 'clickiness' seems to be the order of the day-give me the person who 'stands alone' ANYDAY-:beerchug: :beerchug: :beerchug:

optrex
15-01-2007, 08:59 PM
I think some of you need to research this rather than make rash statements. :(

Lets take the follwing link from the HMRC itself shall we?

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/pdfs/2002_03/religion/sa101m_notes.pdf

To quote another souce "All churches who have a payroll need to comply with the regulations relating to the deduction of income tax and national insurance from stipends and salaries."

jobee
15-01-2007, 09:23 PM
I think some of you need to research this rather than make rash statements. :(

Lets take the follwing link from the HMRC itself shall we?

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/pdfs/2002_03/religion/sa101m_notes.pdf

To quote another souce "All churches who have a payroll need to comply with the regulations relating to the deduction of income tax and national insurance from stipends and salaries."


is that your own page I can't open anything up-you will have to do better than that--most people I know think religion is a charity- i would ban
organised religion Ive read 'the history of the catholic church' they are
disgusting- genocidal- some of those popes were mad even insane

optrex
15-01-2007, 09:51 PM
Its a PDF document direct from HM Revenue and Customs.

Try downloading Acrobat reader if you can't open it. Acrobat reader is available from here Adobe - Adobe Reader Download - All versions (http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html)

Shizara
16-01-2007, 12:27 AM
I have no problem displaying this file on the PC and have just been to the RISC OS where, though the process is different, it still opens the pdf file and displays the contents.

Leofric
16-01-2007, 01:33 AM
I think some of you need to research this rather than make rash statements. :(

Lets take the follwing link from the HMRC itself shall we?

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/pdfs/2002_03/religion/sa101m_notes.pdf

To quote another souce "All churches who have a payroll need to comply with the regulations relating to the deduction of income tax and national insurance from stipends and salaries."

Um, I think it helps if you know what you're talking about.

You're talking about the salaries of employees of churches. Religions, as charitable organisations, are excempt from Capital Gains tax and Corporation Tax in the UK. They also get other benefits.

HM Revenue & Customs: Annex I - Charitable Tax Exemption (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/charities/guidance-notes/annex1/annex_i.htm)

I'm quite surprised you're arguing it. It's something that's very well known and the cause of some contention.

Leofric
16-01-2007, 01:35 AM
I have no problem displaying this file on the PC and have just been to the RISC OS where, though the process is different, it still opens the pdf file and displays the contents.

The "process" (?) may be different, but the file format is the same.

Shizara
16-01-2007, 01:47 AM
Grins.... looks like I didn't explain that very well. You are very right.. the file format is the same. The process involved to view is different in that you have to download and save the file first then view.

optrex
16-01-2007, 07:47 AM
Um, I think it helps if you know what you're talking about.

You're talking about the salaries of employees of churches. Religions, as charitable organisations, are excempt from Capital Gains tax and Corporation Tax in the UK. They also get other benefits.



Ministers of any church get a salary, (or stipend) that is Income Taxed, they buy goods and food, both of which are subject to Value Added Tax. If they drive they are subjec to Road Tax and Fuel Tax, same with gas and electric.

Of course they are Taxed, we ALL are! :banghead3:

I know I am. It was clearly pointed out in my post that I was talking about ministers. I also refer to Jobee's first post.


Why should the income of a priest or rabbi etc be exempt from income tax?

jobee
16-01-2007, 02:23 PM
I know I am. It was clearly pointed out in my post that I was talking about ministers. I also refer to Jobee's first post.

After extensive enquiries-Churches [religions]are counted as charities and get all the tax concessions that charity organisations get-