Warwick Mop

[Toad]

Is anyone else sick of the disruption caused by the annual Warwick fun-fair?

[optrex]

DOesn't affect me, but I may be interested in it as a visitor. What are the problems associated with it as a local? Is it just traffic issues? Where is it sited in the town and how does the disruption differ to any other festival or event (concert at the Castle for instance)

[Shizara]

How long does the Warwick Mop last? ie is it a day only event or does it go on for a week or two?

[chillitt]

the mop takes over swan street, brook st the market place market st new street and the car parks in new st and brook st from thursday 4 pm till some point on sunday. this is over 2 weekends. during this time no shops on those streets can take deliveries in, or send anything out unless they can carry it some distance.
while the mop was on last week diesel fumes made the market place and my shop just off it a health hazzard. i had to shut the shop because the staff we getting woozy.
it differs from any other event in that there seems to be zero consideration to health and safety or disruption to locals.
it gets away with it because they have a 'charter' which i believe states they pay a few quid a year for the trouble the cause, but it literally a few quid.
they claim to be traditional, in that originally the first mop was a hiring fair where all the local lads would find gainful employ, and the second mop is the 'runaway fair' where if these lads didn't like their new job, they got a second go. quite what that has to do with deisel generators, candy floss and 'bent' try your luck games i have no idea. my shop hasn't changed for 111 years, thats traditional, but it doesn't stop them running a tatfest on the pavement outside.
usually the town starts to return to normal on the monday after the second mop, litter blows round the town for another few days while the council chaps chase it, the oil and other stains are gradually washed way, and blood pressures return to normal. i am not a fan.

[Shizara]

I can understand why you are not a fan, I wouldn't be either. Am assuming that it has to be run in a town rather than a suitable place nearby and I have to wonder if when it first begain they had diesel generators etc.

[chillitt]

between the 2 mops, they camp down on the racecourse. easy access plenty of parking etc. why not have it there? i believe W.C.C. look in here from time to time, perhaps they could tell us....:rolleyes:

[Shizara]

That's a very good point. Also, is it necessary to advise local businesses when they plan to hold the mop and give anyone the chance to object?

[chillitt]

we are 'informed'. there is no option to object or even comment... its usually about 3 weeks notice of the exact dates, but we all know its coming..:rolleyes:

[Toad]

In fact we do get notice but we do all know the middle two weeks of October will be a wash-out for business.
Businesses and residents have been trying to get rid of the mop for years. It is too big for the centre of a small town. It ought to be either very much smaller or on the race-course (Nottingham got rid of theirs from the city centre years ago and it has worked wonderfully well.)
There was a mop 'review' last year. The majority of residents, businesses and local council officers all said that it had to change and be made smaller - guess what, the councillors disagreed - we all wonder why. We are stuck with it until the next review in 4 years time.
All we want is for it to include the town and not exclude it. The Victorian Evening is a great example of how everyone in the town works together to provide a great event. This is what the mop should be.

[Shizara]

I couldn't agree more. It pretty much sums up the impression I was already getting. The mop, as it stands now, would seem to exclude the town by it's very activities and most certainly fo the businesses there. I seem to remember when a nearby pub had applied for a late licence - mostly to make noise I think. I did object but the response received told me that it was a waste of time as I had gotten the impression it was going to happen anyway. The end result now is there is more noise than ever from the place, they drink on the street in front of it, shout, scream and in general make an amazing racket. They spill on to the streets and stagger/wander wherever, they turn doorways, alleyways etc into makeshift toilets for urinating and vomiting and of course, there is the broken glass. I have no objection per se to people enjoying themselves - we all like to do so - however, my objection is much along the same lines as yours. The "it's going to happen, live with it" thinking whether we like it or not. Seemingly a sad indictment of today's society.

[Toad]

It is a big problem. We have another between Warwick & Leamington with a huge Tesco shop. Nobody wanted it, the local councils fought it all the way to the High court and lost. Now they want to expand the shop (putting even more small businesses out of business) and the planners just say 'Yes' because if the applicants appeal and win the local council picks up the legal bill and can be sued for loss of earnings during the appeals. Stupid - no local council can afford to take that risk. A good example is Coventry Airport where WDC lost a fortune.

[Shizara]

... and the planners just say 'Yes' because if the applicants appeal and win the local council picks up the legal bill and can be sued for loss of earnings during the appeals. Stupid - no local council can afford to take that risk. A good example is Coventry Airport where WDC lost a fortune.

That's really where it's at perhaps. You could read much into that including the notion that there is less concern about the smaller businesses kicking up a fuss and taking them to court than the financial loss should big business do so.

[Madhatter]

It is a big problem. We have another between Warwick & Leamington with a huge Tesco shop. Nobody wanted it, the local councils fought it all the way to the High court and lost. Now they want to expand the shop (putting even more small businesses out of business) and the planners just say 'Yes' because if the applicants appeal and win the local council picks up the legal bill and can be sued for loss of earnings during the appeals. Stupid - no local council can afford to take that risk. A good example is Coventry Airport where WDC lost a fortune.

Atherstone did, and quite rightly. The aldi shed did not have my approval and did not have the approval of several local councillors. You always get one though that will support these things. I'm sure there were more than one but councillor d.pickard said he was pleased the store was coming and liked the design. For some reason I got banned off our local site when I pointed out that this store will take business of local shops and incorparted a dangerous alley.
It got overturned of course Aldi got the go ahead and our borough council payed.
I admire the planning department for that.
The fair. Who's fair is it ? and why are their no consultations done with chamber of trade? you all need to get together and make it clear you will not put up with generators outside your shops. There is no need for it.

[chillitt]

mh, you ever tried to reason with the guild of showmen or a county council? its like painting fog...

[Madhatter]

they should be reasoning with each other. Whos sets out whats going where ? If it's all down to the fair people thats wrong and the fault of the shop owners. get together and force them to take notice.
Who exactly is running the town centre there. ?
All events here are managed by joint group efforts. Nobody is in charge really. And I could never see a fair coming in and taking over or the county council taking over.
We had a statutes fair in the town years ago, It was gotten rid of in the name of improvement, but I don't see why, it wasn't hurting where it was here. After a gap of many many years the last two has saw it return to its original site. It bought back a lot of childhood memories. It's just not the same stuck out of town on a muddy field. Thats ok if there's a carnival.

[chillitt]

well theres a chamber of trade that has a new broom in charge this year,a lot of the shop keepers gave up on the camber of trade cos it was a bit cliquey, hopefully thats changed now. in the past they've not had much to say. theres a town centre manager, on the council but im not sure wether he has a lot of power then there is the council itself... .

[Madhatter]

Who organises the victorian evening ?

[Toad]

The Victorian Evening is organised by the Chamber of Trade and the local Town Centre Management team. The Chamber used to organise it alone but there was such a lack of practical support from local businesses that it stopped for a couple of years. The same people who wouldn't help when it was on then said they wanted it back! Now it works well because the load is spread more fairly.
As for the Chamber of Trade, it is only as good as the input from it's members, which has lamentable in the past. It has been revamped, the support is now much better and it has even launched a new web site for all the businesses in the town at www.warwickchamberoftrade.co.uk. This has had a very good response, considering its only been live for two weeks. The only way we will get something done about things like the mop is by collective action. The Chamber has achieved amazing things over the last ten years but people always want someone else to do the work - very few are willing to put their moaning in to positive action.

[Toad]

I forgot to say, Madhatter asked 'The fair. Who's fair is it ? and why are their no consultations done with chamber of trade?' It's the local council who decides who will the mount the mop - anyone can tender, but, you've guessed it, it never goes to tender. Wonder why not. The Chamber of Trade has been fighting the mop for years and led the businesses case at the review last year.

[Madhatter]

simple, if they don't listen don't let them into the town. Cause a disturbance, block the roads. Its YOUR town, YOUR shops, you should all stick together. Now that you've got a few basic things sorted which are things that have happened in Atherstone in the past you should have a strong voice. All for one and one for all where shops are concerned.

[chillitt]

i think, given the bother there was friday and saturday night this year, we may find the police being less than 100% behind the mop next year..
aparrently 8 police officers faced 100 'youths' wearing balaclavas or veils looking for bother saturday night...
its all so sordid..

[Toad]

Yes, lots of problems. I gather the mop licence can be 'reviewed' each year. Our hope is that we can get a 'review' in the light of the violence over two weekends. The Chamber of Trade are going to look at it but it is a legal minefield and some councillors are determined to keep it - but then they don't put up with the noise, vomit, fighting etc. etc.!!

[Shizara]

It is a bit catch 22, however I would have to wonder why it has degenerated into a legal minefield or has it always been one but not been tested before and of those determined to keep it, on what grounds? - (A local field?)

[Toad]

Well, put quickly, there was always a notion that the mop was granted as a royal charter. The Chamber if Trade spent quite a bit of money having this tested through legal council. It transpired that there IS a charter but it is up to the local council to award it and it is NOT a right for the showmans guild to mount the event. The mop belongs to the council and they can award it to whoesoever they wish. As I have said before, there are strange things going on. Against all the advice and protests the review councillors said the mop should continue with the showmans guild. No one is sure why and it is very strange. Some have suggested illegal doings - I could not possibly comment!!

[chillitt]

my only comment would be all the shops in warwick put signs up tomorrow morning saying 'warwick mop- move it, or stop it.' and leave them up.

[Toad]

Brilliant idea, chillitt, I think a lot of people would do it. Organise it!!

[chillitt]

they didn't tell you about the disastrous brewery trip i set up then..?:eek:

[Shizara]

Well... you could always start a new thread and tell us about it:D

[chillitt]

heres a thought why not get this lot in instead...?

http://www.carterssteamfair.co.uk/carters_steam_fair_001.htm

[Toad]

Good idea but Chamber tried that. They are not memebers of the dreaded, feared Showmans Guild!!

But, more news, apparently the local council are so worried by the violence that the mop attracted that they are reviewing what can be changed for next year.
There is hope for change yet, and the Chamber of Trade are leading the way - again.

[chillitt]

i have to say, upsetting the showmans guild isn't too far up my list of priorities, and i cant see why it should be on the councils list either. unless they are being bribed or threatened by them...:eek:

[Unregistered]

As yet I'm not a registered member of this forum but I think this may happen.

Looks a bit too me as if this is another way for the Chamber of Trade to dismiss Warwick Heritage!! As an organisation they have been proven time and time again to invent facts, twist tales and in some cases just make stuff up if fact doesn't support their cause. Much of what is on here is complete hype. I have my suspicions who the individuals are as there are only a handful with such hatred for the mop but I will not comment.

The mop is always held the same dates (the first Friday and Saturday after the 12th October and following weekend) so there is no need to be informed. If you were Wawrick people you would know!

You all opened your shops or chose to live there knowing it happens each year. But for some reason you think 800 years means nothing and you are more important. I find this a great disappointment. You would rather it be held near residents who bought properties away from the town centre, who would have reasonable grounds to complain.

As for the Chamber of Trade proposing they run it, thats the best joke I've heard all year. By eight oclock Sunday morning you wouldn't know the mop was there. No 'litter being chased by the council', no oil spills. To the contrary the Chamber run victorian evening used to leave litter everywhere. The place was a tip when I went up one year.

Oh and for anyone on here not familiar with the Victorian Evening, it is a fun fair in the middle of Warwick with no legal charter but those posting here like it more than the historic one.

The layout of the mop is centuries old with positions passing from showman to showman. The showmen today had family presenting rides at the turn of the century in the same place. If you actually looked into the facts about the mop this would be clear as would the huge amounts paid out to host event.

At the end of the day there will always be a few miserable ill informed people who want to stop the rest of us having fun. They have proved that they are willing to be underhand in their approach to get what they want and no reasoning with them works.

Fortunately we have councillors who see through them (which must add to their frustration), they look at the facts and continue to support what the majority of Warwick wants.

I now await the barrage of negativity Mr Toad!!

Or perhaps a forum moderator could delete this thread which is clearly meant to mislead and damage the reputation of Warwick's heritage.

[chillitt]

Deep breath...
Of those 800 years of history for the Mop, how many of them have been powered bu ill maintained diesel generators? How many of them have enjoyed the sounds of short bursts of very loud 'pop' music on a contastly repeating loop?
How much hiring actually goes on at this traditional hiring fair?

If the market place is restored to its former glory by 8 am on sunday, where to all the pools of hydraulic oil and worst come from, and why does the place stink of diesel for a week?

You sem to think that dislike of the mop is down to the desire to modernise - far from it the mop as run now is using a traditional fair to force all the worst part of modern life on the residents of warwick, a town probably more intent on preseving the traditional than any other.

I work in the town centre, my place of employment has not changed for more than 100 years, and my job involves preserving this town and many others.

The only reason you can possibly have missed the difference between the Christmas fair (mostly steam powered, Traditional and fun) and the mop(filthy noisy and a tatfest) is because you have some vested interest in the mop.


Welcome to the forum.

[Unregistered]

hmm interesting...

I think I said there was no reasoning, you have underlined this. You accuse me of a vested interest without even knowing my connection (if any) with the event.

Anyway, before you decide to become more personal towards me I will remind you that I have said my bit, I have highlighted the facts and that this thread is very biased, unfair and the opinion of a minority and leave it at that! I'm not prepared to be provoked into a slanging match as this achieves nothing.

I would also like to reiterate my request to a moderator that the thread be removed on the grounds of bias, innaccuracy and damage to the reputation of our towns heritage.

Thanks.

[chillitt]

Not prepared to discuss the issue then?
Iwouldn't dream of making a personal attack on you over this, and if you had just said you love the mop and all about it, then I probably would not have even replied, because thats up to you. You have made accusations about me (as the thread starter) of being part of some anti-heritage plot involving the chamber of trade which is about as wrong as it's possible to get.

As you want the thread pulled, does that mean I am not allowed an opinion, or that my (and others) opinions because they differ with yours should not be allowed?

[cathidaw]

Now boys!!---dont fall out.
I used love these mops but now they are no more than prolonged funfairs.
Maybe they weren't, 800 years ago when presumably this charter was granted.
And also perhaps the rules should be the same---only steam attractions -no modern vehicles - which would mean no deisel.
Or would that intrude too much on the shopkeepers in the town--you know the tinkle of the steam-based music with its own peculiar smell ?
I dont think it would.
It would also keep out the riff-raff stallholders especially all those identical stalls with sweatshop clothing.
Some years, at the end of September , I go to the big 3 day steam fair in Stourpane Bushes in Dorset where all the steam people meet up at the end of every year. It is It is so good to see these wonderful engines still working .there is a magic about them -and the smell.
Tell me about the magic in the scent of deisel fumes.

[Shizara]

Our members are right when saying that when the Mop first began diesel and it's revolting fumes were not part the Mop. I realize things to a lesser or greater degree 'move with the times' but surely this shouldn't be done to
.......force all the worst part of modern life on the
residents of warwick, a town probably more intent on preserving the traditional than any other.
When celebrating the things that are traditional why do we need to add things that are not only an annoyance to others for various reasons but are also on the list of things that cause serious health problems? EPA, the ACGIH, NIOSH and IARC agree that diesel exhaust is a human carcinogen. Other respiratory disorders caused or exacerbated by diesel exhaust include asthma and chronic bronchitis.

To our unregistered user, this thread is not biased, it is the opinions of a few who have responded and I do not see a reason to remove the thread. If you feel a comment is inaccurate why not prove to us that this is so, in a reasonable manner, that we might understand why you feel as you do? As you have already said, slanging matches achieve nothing, however, reasoning opinions benefit all.

Local traditions need to be preserved and the knowledge of the history behind them. They add colour to towns, can be fun, usually attract many visitors and in the case of the mop the mayor appears in his regalia officially opening the mop. On the downside, because it is being held in the town, this is the 21st century which means roads are closed which will inconvenience many, the crime rate goes up so watch your pockets and purses. Fairs can be magical places though as cathidaw points out:


Show me the magic in diesel fumes.

[Will]

I don't know why they can't move it to somewhere like the racecourse maybe? That would be well out of everyone's way, but not so far that people can't go.

[Shizara]

It would seem the most sensible solution.

[Toad]

Just thought it would cheer everybody up that now WDC's new money-making parking scheme is about to start (6th August) the mop people will have to compensate us (taxpayers) for the loss of parking charges and parking fines. The chamber of trade is also trying to get them to pay the going rate for ruining the town for 6 days. Hopefully both financial penalties will put them off. They can take their fighting gangs somewhere else!

[Toad]

It's also worth mentioning to your unregistered contributor that the chamber of trade does not run the Victorian Evening, it helps in the running - and it attracts about 800% more people than the mop! How many shops stay open for the mop - not many because they are too frightened of being targetted by the yobs that the mop attracts. Most of the shops stay open for the VE.

[Madhatter]

I'm offended by unregistered accusing me of being biased. I am not biased against any fair, but you have to take in to account that a lot of things have changed over the years. The fair has changed, the people running it, the rides, the music, the power supply, The town has changed, the shops, the owners, the customers, the streets, pedestrian zones, car parking, street furniture. You can't have all that change, carry on as if it was 800 yrs ago and expect no one to complain. You're lucky your allowed to have the fair in the town centre with all this health and safety obsession.
In fact I am biased towards the fairs, and my family have done a bit to help fairs over the years.
Atherstone has created a dickens night that has a real fair with modern rides as well as traditional, The carnival also now has a proper fair instead of the carnival paying for mickey mouse market day rides that can't be bothered to turn up n let the kids down. Unfortunately it was a washout last year but the fair will be back this.

Fairs provide entertainment for all ages and can leave lasting memories of a magical childhood, I remember Atherstone carnival fair from when I was a child very well indeed.
However my friends sister has the opposite because she was set upon by a gang of yobs and a girl beat her badly while she had to watch. She's never been to a fair since and won't let her children. That is unacceptable and fairs need to work with others to stop that sort of behaviour.

Is it really necessary to have generators in the street?

[Unregistered]

GET A LIFE YOU LOAD OF KILL JOYS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Warwick Mop will be in the streets for many many YEARS TO COME for generations of children to ENJOY!!!!!!!
the mop takes over swan street, brook st the marketplace market st new street and the car parks in new st and brook st from thursday 4 pm till some point on sunday. this is over 2 weekends. during this time no shops on those streets can take deliveries in, or send anything out unless they can carry it some distance.
while the mop was on last week diesel fumes made the market place and my shop just off it a health hazzard. i had to shut the shop because the staff we getting woozy.
it differs from any other event in that there seems to be zero consideration to health and safety or disruption to locals.
it gets away with it because they have a 'charter' which i believe states they pay a few quid a year for the trouble the cause, but it literally a few quid.
they claim to be traditional, in that originally the first mop was a hiring fair where all the local lads would find gainful employ, and the second mop is the 'runaway fair' where if these lads didn't like their new job, they got a second go. quite what that has to do with deisel generators, candy floss and 'bent' try your luck games i have no idea. my shop hasn't changed for 111 years, thats traditional, but it doesn't stop them running a tatfest on the pavement outside.
usually the town starts to return to normal on the monday after the second mop, litter blows round the town for another few days while the council chaps chase it, the oil and other stains are gradually washed way, and blood pressures return to normal. i am not a fan.

[Unregistered]

Bribed or threatened. Get real you ediot. Warwick Mop has a charter going back hundreds of years and the council nor you can do nothing about it. It would take an act of parliment to get the Mop moved and thats not going to happen. So go and crawl back under the stone that you came from under and STOP THERE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i have to say, upsetting the showmans guild isn't too far up my list of priorities, and i cant see why it should be on the councils list either. unless they are being bribed or threatened by them...:eek:

[Unregistered]

Shove the Chamber of trade were the SUN DOESNT SHINE.



Good idea but Chamber tried that. They are not memebers of the dreaded, feared Showmans Guild!!

But, more news, apparently the local council are so worried by the violence that the mop attracted that they are reviewing what can be changed for next year.
There is hope for change yet, and the Chamber of Trade are leading the way - again.

[chillitt]

Some interesting points, er.. reg, (can I call you reg?) well presented. Thanks for clearing that up. hmm..... I smell candy floss diesel and cheap burgers...:rolleyes:

[Unregistered]

hmm as i understand people are entitled to their opinion there are a lot of untrue things said on here especially about the showmens guild,they are not run by a bunch of gangsters as someone seems to think,as for the apparent violence where on earth are the police but nobody seems to be having a go about them.dont you have violence on youre streets on any normal weekend night then?maybe warwick council should take a leaf out of neath porttalbot councils books who part run great fair which also has a charter going back 850 years,the council have erected new lampposts with power points and underground hidden power points which can be lowered and raised when needed,youll find no generators in that town center,perhaps you could check youre facts before present such ill informed nonsense.

[Unregistered]

dear toad and chillit,where do you get your facts from the daily sport!!!as has been pointed out the only thing that can stop a ROYAL charter is an act of parliament which is supported by mps then voted for in the house of lords.as for bribary this is what you are doing by using lies to get people to support youre pointless demonstration,also the showmens guild pay lots of rent to be there for the mop which increases each year above inflation,this rent goes a long way towards the councils spending budget.how would you feel if youre taxes shot up as a result of the mop being stopped somehow,i wonder.

[FunFairFred]

All those in favour ..... See you their.

All those against .... Close down your shops, get a life in a field milking cows, change your surname to " Killjoy " and wither away peacefully.

Iv'e read some crap in my time but this takes the biscuit.

These people are moaning and making accusations simply because they can't get their own way. I bet you guys have NEVER done anything wrong in your ENTIRE LIVES. Not even too messing with the tax returns....... YEAH RIGHT.

Stop moaning and think about the money thats put into the town because of the MOP.......Ahhhh, that could be the problem, It's put into the town and not your greedy little pockets.
I bet if you were allowed to charge a showman a couple of grand to set up outside your premisses you would bring him tea and biccys all day.....LOL, you sad sad people.



Fred

[chillitt]

hmm as i understand people are entitled to their opinion there are a lot of untrue things said on here especially about the showmens guild,they are not run by a bunch of gangsters as someone seems to think,as for the apparent violence where on earth are the police but nobody seems to be having a go about them.dont you have violence on youre streets on any normal weekend night then?maybe warwick council should take a leaf out of neath porttalbot councils books who part run great fair which also has a charter going back 850 years,the council have erected new lampposts with power points and underground hidden power points which can be lowered and raised when needed,youll find no generators in that town center,perhaps you could check youre facts before present such ill informed nonsense.

Warwick town centre has the very same power points that are hidden under man holes for your convienience. yet we still the generators.

[chillitt]

dear toad and chillit,where do you get your facts from the daily sport!!!as has been pointed out the only thing that can stop a ROYAL charter is an act of parliament which is supported by mps then voted for in the house of lords.as for bribary this is what you are doing by using lies to get people to support youre pointless demonstration,also the showmens guild pay lots of rent to be there for the mop which increases each year above inflation,this rent goes a long way towards the councils spending budget.how would you feel if youre taxes shot up as a result of the mop being stopped somehow,i wonder.


I get my facts from looking out my door at the shambles. Er, how much rent exactly does the guild pay for the mop? I understand it will have to pay extra this year due to the parking meters being installed, thats only what I have heard, can you confirm that?

[chillitt]

All those in favour ..... See you their.

All those against .... Close down your shops, get a life in a field milking cows, change your surname to " Killjoy " and wither away peacefully.

Iv'e read some crap in my time but this takes the biscuit.

These people are moaning and making accusations simply because they can't get their own way. I bet you guys have NEVER done anything wrong in your ENTIRE LIVES. Not even too messing with the tax returns....... YEAH RIGHT.

Stop moaning and think about the money thats put into the town because of the MOP.......Ahhhh, that could be the problem, It's put into the town and not your greedy little pockets.
I bet if you were allowed to charge a showman a couple of grand to set up outside your premisses you would bring him tea and biccys all day.....LOL, you sad sad people.



Fred

I don't want to spoil your fun, or anyone elses, but I cannot for the life of me see why the mop cannot be held on the racecourse. Any figures on how much money you bring into Warwick? or figures on the cost of policing and clearing up?

You have called me a greedy killjoy and accused me of fiddling tax returns. Care to back that up, or are you just "moaning and making accusations"?
and you aint ever, getting any of my biscuits!

[Unregistered]

I get my facts from looking out my door at the shambles. Er, how much rent exactly does the guild pay for the mop? I understand it will have to pay extra this year due to the parking meters being installed, thats only what I have heard, can you confirm that?the couple of quid rent quoted on here is just a token rent in keeping with law and tradition but the actual rent paid by the various rides stalls etc runs into the thousands to pay policing,24 hour street cleaning and refuse collection,i think youll find the cost for policing, extra fire service and ambulance cover,refuse and street cleaning,and loss of parking revenue, comes to about 73 percent of rent collected,maybe your rants should be aimed at the council not the showmen who are just trying to make an honest living,if any oil or diesel is unfortunatly spilled the showmen do and quite happily will pay a large fee on top of the rent to clean the mess up properly,do the guild provide free ride tickets and a free morning for the underprivelidged kids in warwick at this fair cos i notice their charity work hasnt been given a mention.as for paying extra for parking meters that are installed thats also nonsense

[chillitt]

Thank you for those details.. I meant the actual amounts, to put it all into perspective with the lost earnings of the shops in the town. I may do the old freedom of information thing with the council. If they make a profit on this it would explain why it still blocks up the town centre. Still they would still get just as much money from having on the racecourse, presumably...

[Unregistered]

I don't want to spoil your fun, or anyone elses, but I cannot for the life of me see why the mop cannot be held on the racecourse. Any figures on how much money you bring into Warwick? or figures on the cost of policing and clearing up?

You have called me a greedy killjoy and accused me of fiddling tax returns. Care to back that up, or are you just "moaning and making accusations"?
and you aint ever, getting any of my biscuits!it cannot be moved to the racecourse cos a. where will all the living wagons go(into the town center?)and b. it will probably lose its charter if moved.

[Unregistered]

Thank you for those details.. I meant the actual amounts, to put it all into perspective with the lost earnings of the shops in the town. I may do the old freedom of information thing with the council. If they make a profit on this it would explain why it still blocks up the town centre. Still they would still get just as much money from having on the racecourse, presumably...as for actual amounts a lot of money is passed that week so only the treasurers will know actual amounts ,dont forget if its moved to the racecourse the rent will be paid to the race course which doesnt include loss of parking extra fire and ambulance cover etc etc losing the council tens of thousands a year(assuming the race course is not owned by council)i doubt the freedom of info thing works with this because of the royal protection attatched to it.

[chillitt]

it cannot be moved to the racecourse cos a. where will all the living wagons go(into the town center?)and b. it will probably lose its charter if moved.

Its a big racecourse...:rolleyes:

[chillitt]

as for actual amounts a lot of money is passed that week so only the treasurers will know actual amounts ,dont forget if its moved to the racecourse the rent will be paid to the race course which doesnt include loss of parking extra fire and ambulance cover etc etc losing the council tens of thousands a year(assuming the race course is not owned by council)i doubt the freedom of info thing works with this because of the royal protection attatched to it.

So an unknown amount of money is handed over to the council... I think the council records will show amounts recieved and where from. Public accountability and all that...

[Unregistered]

So an unknown amount of money is handed over to the council... I think the council records will show amounts recieved and where from. Public accountability and all that...its not an anknown amount cos the coucils acountants will have all the info theres nothing sinister or underhand going on even if you want there to be,maybe you should go on a fact finding mission to some well run charter fairs ,neath ,hereford,hull,nottingham etc where the local businesses welcome and embrace their fair and open their shops till 10 at night ,some businesses even quoting they make more during fair week than in jan and feb!!! and present youre info to the council maybe theyll take you more seriously then.

[chillitt]

Are you sure this Charter is a Royal Charter? if it is, it can be ammended by applying to the Privy Council office, no need to lose it if the mop moves. I cannot find the Showmans Guild or Warwick itself on the list of Royal charters. Any idea of the date it was made? The charter itself is mentioned in many history books, but the Privy Council who would oversee it if it was royal has no mention...

edit... found this..
WARWICK 4282 2650. Borough 914 (BF, p. 175). Mint possibly 924–39, 970s–1154. 1334 Subsidy £84.67: the value is that of Warwick ‘within’; the value of Warwick ‘without’ was £110.17. Borough built by Athelflaed of Mercia in 914; burh in Burghal Hidage and borough in Domesday Book (BF, p. 175; Defence, p. 222; Darby, p. 367). Market town c.1600 (Everitt, p. 475). See also VCH Warwickshire, viii, pp. 480–1, 497.
M (Prescriptive: borough, mint) recorded 1088x1119 when Henry de Beaumont, earl of Warwick, granted a tenth of the toll to one of his priests. Market recorded in the mid thirteenth century. In 1279, the market days were Wed and Sat (VCH Warwickshire, viii, p. 480).
F (Charter) vfm+5, Peter ad Vincula (1 Aug); gr 5 Oct 1261, by K Hen III to John de Plessis, earl of Warwick and his successors in the earldom (E. Mason ed. The Beauchamp Cartulary Charters, 1100–1268, PRS ns 43 (1980), no. 309). On 22 Sept 1262, John de Plessis, earl of Warwick granted to his burgesses a fair on 6+f+8 Peter ad Vincula, following his petition to the king (E. Mason ed. The Beauchamp Cartulary Charters, 1100–1268, PRS ns 43 (1980), no. 308).
F (Charter) vf+5, Michael (29 Sept); gr 6 Nov 1268, by K Hen III to William de Bello Campo, earl of Warwick. To be held at the manor (CChR, 1257–1300, p. 114). On 16 Jul 1413, Richard Beauchamp, earl of Warwick, the king’s cousin, stated that the yearly fair held for 3 days at Michaelmas, granted to the bailiffs, burgesses and other commons of Warwick, was of no profit. On that day there were six or seven other fairs in the neighborhood. K Ric II granted Earl Richard and his heirs that the bailiffs, burgesses and other commons could have a fair in the borough on vfm Bartholomew (24 Aug) in lieu (CChR, 1341–1417, p. 455).
F (Charter) vfm+12, Peter and Paul (29 Jun); gr 25 Aug 1290, by K Edw I to William de Bello Campo, earl of Warwick (CChR, 1257–1300, p. 371). To be held at the manor.
F (Grant: Other) 3 day fair on f Simon and Jude (28 Oct); gr 1479 (VCH Warwickshire, viii, pp. 480–1).
F (Grant: Other) 3 day fair on f Philip and James (1 May); gr 1479 (VCH Warwickshire, viii, pp. 480–1).
How does this relate to the current mop and its precise location???

[Unregistered]

Hiya, I'm a local resident and me and my children look forward to the fair coming, as for dirty diesell generators, think of the days when everything was powered by steam, no one complained then when they had coal being burnt next to the shops, so I think I'd rather have the modern diesell generators! Maybe the councill should run all the rides of the town mains? Or local shop owners could be more helpfull and let the smaller rides plug into there electricity supply? Or maybe you killjoys should shut up!
Its a great tradition and long may it continue, afterall the statue of Randolph Turpin in the town is a great tribute to a man who learnt his art on the Fairground Boxing Booths.

[Unregistered]

Its obvious alot more people are in favour of the fairground than against, you've just got this sad individual called chill it on here, I think he should chill it! By the way which shop is actually yours? Maybe we should start some sort of protest to have that closed down aswell?!

[Unregistered]

At last somone who has a bit of common sense. Warwick mop has a long tradition going back hundreds of years. If it was moved to the racecourse ( WITCH WILL NEVER HAPPEN ) it would lose its atmosfere that it has in the streets.



Hiya, I'm a local resident and me and my children look forward to the fair coming, as for dirty diesell generators, think of the days when everything was powered by steam, no one complained then when they had coal being burnt next to the shops, so I think I'd rather have the modern diesell generators! Maybe the councill should run all the rides of the town mains? Or local shop owners could be more helpfull and let the smaller rides plug into there electricity supply? Or maybe you killjoys should shut up!
Its a great tradition and long may it continue, afterall the statue of Randolph Turpin in the town is a great tribute to a man who learnt his art on the Fairground Boxing Booths.

[Unregistered]

THATS A GOOD IDEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SEE HOW CHILL IT LIKES IT. LETS START A CLOSE DOWN CHILL IT CAMPAIN !!!!!!!!!!!
Its obvious alot more people are in favour of the fairground than against, you've just got this sad individual called chill it on here, I think he should chill it! By the way which shop is actually yours? Maybe we should start some sort of protest to have that closed down aswell?!

[chillitt]

THATS A GOOD IDEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SEE HOW CHILL IT LIKES IT. LETS START A CLOSE DOWN CHILL IT CAMPAIN !!!!!!!!!!!

hehehehe ready when you are... :rolleyes:

[Shizara]

To the person that has been posting as "unregistered"....

opinions are one thing, it is good to consider the opinions of others whether you agree with them or not and let's face it, if everyone had the same thoughts and agreed on everything we would never come up with anything new, however, in expressing your opinion there isn't a need to indulge in name calling and shouting at the users. Try debating the subject in a reasonable manner, people are generally more accommodating of your thoughts.

[Unregistered]

Just found this forum and would like to help out with a few points. I want to try and cover as many as possible so my response will be more than I have time to post now but will follow soon.

I'm glad this is finally being discussed in a reasonable manner, Chillit I have to say I have resented your view (and Toad's for that matter) through out but can see from your last few messages you are willing to look at the information presented. Could I ask what specifcally you would like answers to and I'll see if I can help out. Also would it be unreasonable to ask where some of your facts have come from? I know you say personal experience but is it all that or has some been passed on via other shop keepers?

Sorry I'm not registered on this forum but I'm not into these kind of things, this is of particular interest to me as I love the Mop and look forward to it every year. I'd love to see shop keepers working with the showmen, although many wouldn't belive it to read some of these messages, a lot of shops already do. To help identify myself I will be Mop Fan in my title each time I post, hope this is ok with everyone.

Can I also agree with the thoughts of others that name calling and so forth isn't going to get us anywhere we need to be rational about this.

There is a lot of false information portrayed about the mop and much of that comes from one source. If we can discuss this rationally maybe we can put some of the rumours down once and for all.

[chillitt]

Everything I have put on here is first hand personal experience, apart from the bother the police had, and that came from an officer who was there, in amongst it. (I have just reread everything i wrote to check that!)
For the record, I say again, I don't want to stop the mop. I would realy like it to be a lot more traditional, preferably steam powered OR moved to the racecourse. I would like to know what, exactly the charter says,and when it came into force, and what sort of stone it is carved in! And just out of idle curiosity, I would like to know how much money 'the town' makes out of it, and how much the council gets.
I would also on a side note like to know where so 'many' unregistered posters sprung from?:rolleyes:
I quite liked the fair that came to Warwick for the victorian evening.

[cathidaw]

For someone called 'unregistered ' who is not into 'this sort of thing-namely registering on this site------------ you certainly have plenty to say.! and much of it not very pleasantly.
I had to smile---well laugh out loud,--let smaller rides plug into the small shopkeepers electricity ??
What planet are you on!
I had a business until 3 years ago and no way would I have allowed that to happen. Businesses have a higher rate of electricity for a start, they pay rates- not council tax, also extra for waste bins, and water rates etc. Everyone struggles these days, especially the smallish shops.
Who gets the money from these stalls at the mop? Not the shopkeepers. and
I'm not sure it brings any more trade to the local shops.
the punters are too busy enjoying the rides etc.

We too have Victorian evenings , but it was a waste of time for some shops to open. Anyway I liked to have a look around too.
I must say that I have read and joined in many heated discussions on this WOL site and have never come across any unpleasantness or name calling until now-(note well 'unregistered'!)
We all have our own opinions, but there are more polite ways of expressing them.
I particularly found the remark "lets campaign to get Chillits shop closed down" childish and very silly.
For God's sake you -nor I- know the person.
Just because we write anonimously does not mean we can be vitriolic.:clapping:

[Unregistered]

Most rides run on 415 volts ( 3 phase ) or 110 volts.
I had to smile---well laugh out loud,--let smaller rides plug into the small shopkeepers electricity ??
What planet are you on!

[mop fan]

Best to change the username section. Although being unregistered anyone can pretend to be you, as you can see. With a heated debate, it may be better to register properly.

I do however, appreciate the constructive manner in which you have aired your views, so that may be an easier way to identify you ;)

Enjoy.

[Toad]

Oh dear, it's all getting rather personal and unpleasant - not at all what an open forum should be about.
Let's have a few facts.
Several years ago the council sought very expensive legal opinion (in conjunction with Stratford) as to the legal standing of the mop. That opinion said there is NO charter giving the showmans guild the right to hold a mop. There IS a charter that says there CAN be a mop fair BUT it does not have to be run by anyone in particular. The event is OWNED by the council (us) and they can (and should but don't - which is illegal) put the contract out to tender. They don't because the showmans guild seem to have a stranglehold over the council. This was evidenced by the joke 'review' of 2005 when all the evidence from all the parties, including the councils own officers, said that the mop should not continue in it's present form. For some reason (never explained fully) the committee (none of whom actually live in the town and are therefore immune from the misery it causes) decided to award the showmans guild another contract. There was (and is) total dismay at how they arrived at this! Even when the chamber of trade got the full papers under the freedom of information act it didn't answer the question!
The chamber of trade is currently trying to find out how much extra the showmans guild will pay to compensate us for the lost car parking revenue when the streets and car parks are closed.
This is a highly emotive subject but I do hope we can air of differing views with some decorum.

[Madhatter]

Wish we still had our statutes fair on the back way car park, We put the dickens fair there now but it's not the same.

[optrex]

I've not actually been to the warwick mpo, but all this debate has certainly sparked my interest to see what all the fuss is about - lol

[Toad]

Honestly, Optrex, don't bother. Come over for the Victorian Evening on 30th November - it's brilliant.

[Toad]

Ooops, sorry - it's actually on 29th November.

[Shizara]

I just checked the train service from Nuneaton. Nuneaton - Birmingham walk to Moor Street then Moor Street - Warwick. Not really an option. Will check the buses. Would imagine it to be busy time that night so parking would be in short supply? I don't know Warwick very well so might be wrong.

[Mop Fan]

Before I start Cathidaw, I’m not all the unregistered people that have put messages on here I do believe from the different writing styles that they are a number of individuals. If you had read my message you would see that I said I would identify myself in the description to avoid confusion. I also supported the moderator’s opinion that rational discussion was the best approach. I’m not registered because I’m not into computers particularly and assume you need to have email and so forth to register. Sorry if this offends you but we’re not all up to the same standard with modern technology and I’m making my best attempt to help with a subject very close to my heart. Also the suggestion of campaigning to close Chillit’s shop could be viewed as ‘childish and very silly’ but he suggested doing that to the mop so this was probably a joke which I believe by his response he took it to be? So whoever you are please, respectfully, back off!!

Ok let’s return to this in a rational manner and try to answer a few of the points raised, the mop was granted a Royal Charter in the 1300’s, apologies I don’t have the exact date to hand it’s amongst my notes somewhere but can’t just put my hand on it. King Edward III granted it so it was sometime during his reign. It states the timing, which is always the weekend of the Saturday after the 12th and the following weekend, so I assume the reason the council doesn’t personally inform shop keepers is because it is common local knowledge. The 12th is the date all the local Mop’s, Stratford, Southam Banbury and so forth revolve around, each one being either on it or specific days following it. I have never got to the bottom of the 12th being significant but believe it to be to do with harvesting being completed. Chillit your findings interest me, I have not come across any of these historic items before, where did they come from as I would like to learn more?

There is a document I stumbled on through Google which originated from the council that has a break down of each of the costs and a number of things on it. It is a bit dated now as it relates to the 2004 and 2005 Mop Fairs but the basics are probably much the same with a similar increase in prices each year as there was between the two specified. The Showmen’s Guild pay agreed costs to the Council to cover things such as removal of street furniture, lost income from car parking (which I’m sure will include the new on street parking), road closure signage etc to ensure there is no cost to the council (and consequently the tax payers). From the information on this document this total came to well in excess of £10,000 pounds. There is then a Bond put in place to cover both the use of the town centre and the car park on the race course and this is well over twice the previous figure. Not quite the token rents the Chamber of Trade prints in its news letter.

The race course being an alternative has been suggested numerous times throughout Warwick Mop’s history so perhaps we could look at that for a moment. A licensing agreement exists with the Race Course which prevents such events being held on there. Additional considerations also include by October the race course is muddy which would not be very pleasant to people visiting the Mop (hence they wouldn’t go) and would cause considerable ground damage with machinery being moved around. It is the town centre location that makes Warwick Mop as special as it is, at any other location it is a standard fair. This is probably the point that will offend you the most so please don’t jump on me, but you did open you shops knowing Warwick Mop takes place and since the age of the diesel power. Like it or loath it, the Mop is not a closely guarded secret and you could have found out about it before establishing your business’s. Finally, if it were moved to the race course it would cause disruption to people who chose to live/work outside the town centre and would have a just cause to complain at it being forced on them. I don’t wish to be as blunt as some on here but it is a point many will make and one to which there is not really any comeback.

The generators do seem to be causing a stir this year. I will put my hands up and say I’m strange; I love the smell of diesel! I guess it is like train spotters who like the smell of steam trains but it kindles up memories of the Mop when I was a child. Anyway, as I understand it there are ten generators in use in the town during the Mop fair, in recent years most generators have been converted to silent running ‘sets’ as the showmen call them. They are parked in locations around the town specifically to avoid being in close proximity to shops. Even as a mop fan I can see a generator throbbing away outside your door would be annoying. One generator is positioned right close to a shop but for some reason it was at the shop keeper’s request, he didn’t like its previous location further away. Even I’m confused on that one (perhaps he likes diesel too?) but the rest are in several clusters at street ends. Does anyone have suggestions for better locations for them?

I honestly didn’t know we had power points as I thought the idea had been rejected, however its time to get technological on you all now and refer to the comments made about voltages. Modern fairground equipment runs on three phase 415 Volts. Whilst this is a standard in many industries it is unlikely the town supplies will be that rating, plug a market stall into that voltage and the traders eyes will light up! I assume the sockets are single phase 230 Volts as in a standard household supply. The rather novel suggestion of shopkeepers providing power for smaller attraction’s is also flawed I’m afraid. Nice in theory but many of the juvenile rides are traditional older attractions and they run on 110 Volts, again plug these into a shop/power point and the kids will be going green and pulling several G’s.

Chillit there is a reason Warwick Mop cannot be steam powered. Each showman has a ‘position’ at the mop. This is a designated point where he may present his attraction and is passed through the family or sold to another showman. What this means is they can present whatever ride/attraction they have in that space but no where else in the Mop and no other showman has access to their space. In order for it to be a steam run event the showman would have to own steam powered equipment to put on it. He can substitute others equipment but a complicated subletting process is involved (won’t bore everyone with the details of how that works) and to make the event entirely steam powered would be impossible administratively. If anyone else took over the running of the event they would still have to honour the showmen’s positions. Besides if it were all steam it would be in direct competition with the Victorian Evening, which I also actually like for different reasons. If you look at archive photos of Warwick Mop you will see that today’s layout is not that dissimilar to the turn of the century, because of the position transfers, and that names on the older rides tie in with today’s families.

I can’t help you with the influx of people on here as I stumbled on it by accident during a Google search. I’m glad both sides are being discussed now though so that a sensible conclusion can be reached and people will not get the wrong impression of the event.

In terms of violence at Warwick Mop I’m a little surprised as I have never seen any personally but am willing to accept your personal experiences. I have noticed over the years that violent behaviour is becoming far more an issue with modern day life and that is a real shame. As a child I would play a considerable distance from my home, but I wouldn’t let my children do the same today. It is a sad fact that a minority can spoil it for the majority and this is why we need to fight it wherever possible. The showmen I am sure don’t want a yob element either as they don’t spend money at the Mop or shops they just cause a disturbance to those who want to enjoy themselves. There is always a Police presence at the Mop but the officer I spoke to said there’s little more trouble at the Mop than any other weekend. Maybe it is just that it is centralised on the town centre rather than incidents spread about the entire town but apparently not that bad. I was astounded therefore to read the Chamber of Trade comments of a Police cover up. If they talked to Chillit I assume they talked to other shop keepers?

I don’t want to point fingers but the Chamber does appear to have it in for the Mop and this is not the opinion of all its members now that membership is automatic. Others on here can of course make their own opinions and as I now have a cartoon style vision in my head of Mr Toad sitting typing on his antique chair in Toad Hall he may be able to help with this too. The mop review was carried out very carefully and considered the views of key individuals. Its findings were the view of the majority (which the Chamber of Trade it appears is not) and represented a much bigger picture than any one person or organisation. Each time the subject of Warwick Mop comes up the number of supporters of the town centre location greatly out weigh those against and the review findings backed this.

'my message is over the maximum length so continues below, thanks'

[Mop Fan]

Continued.....

As a genuinely interested Mop fan I spoke to a lady who works in a food outlet in the town about the effect the Mop has. I was disappointed when she said they closed early until she followed it with because they sold out of stock! They had such good takings that day they had no food left to sell. This will come as a surprise to many readers on here I am sure but I cannot argue it. Years ago the shops had used to stay open much as they do for the Victorian Evening now, and some still do but it is a shame that more don’t. If the shops opened and made it more of a family event maybe the yob element would lose interest, much as I assume they have no interest in the Victorian Evening.

I noted in recent years that special arrangements are in place to ensure delivery drivers still get access to the town during mop days. I have on a number of occasions watched showmen stop work to direct a courier’s van through the rides to its destination. Something they are not obliged to do, but do out of courtesy.

I hope I have been able to add some insight to the Mop and how it is run. It fascinates me so much I could write ten times this essay on the subject. Showmen are genuinely nice people and I feel lucky to be friends with a number of them. I would suggest to any shopkeeper at this years mop have a chat to the showmen outside your shop, even if it is just to say ‘hello’ or ‘how did it go at the last place’ I’m sure you will find them interesting to talk to and maybe dispel some of the myths that sadly are still held by many today. One shopkeeper I know offers those outside his shop a regular supply of warm tea which I know is appreciated on a cold October night. Just a thought anyway, perhaps if you had names to faces and understood each other a compromise could be reached on most issues.

Cathidaw in all seriousness, was this written pleasantly?

[Mop Fan]

I thought I’d add this as a separate message rather than it get lost amongst my other. Those of you that have expressed an interest in coming to the Mop this year, I say go for it! Car parking is not a problem there is a large council car park that is free to use at weekends, a multi story that is pay and display but I think only open during the day and two car parks on the race course. One shared with the showmen’s living wagons but still with plenty of space. No need to go via Birmingham to get here unless you enjoy train rides. :O)

If you are really new to the whole event why not come to the opening on the first Saturday at 12 noon? The Mayor, Town Crier, Mace Bearer’s and town officials all attend in their traditional attire. The opening ceremony is performed and charter read aloud, then the mayor and his party take a tour around the attractions granting free rides as they go and the braver members have a go themselves. Then there is the pig roast, the first slice being auctioned to the highest bidder and traditionally handed back many times for re-auction before the money is donated to the Mayors Charity. Often the showmen bid in this auction to make further contributions to the town. If you don’t want to bid you can take the cheaper route of buying some of the later slices in a pork batch. I may be biased on this one but I think they are the best pork batches in Warwick. The whole procedure is all quite a spectacle; the fair then gradually gets busier up to evening time when weather permitting the town is packed.

I would take on board Toad’s comments about the Victorian Evening, though not in preference. I do like the Victorian Evening but it is not what it was. I like the fairground element with steam galloping horses and traditional stalls and also the beautiful mechanical organ, but lately there have been radio road shows which in my opinion and that of many older people is drifting away from the traditional Victorian theme. The number of stalls in attendance has also dwindled as the rent prices have gone up. It is a shame as it would be fantastic for both events to flourish, but much as I enjoy it I don’t think the Victorian Evening is up to the hype and ‘World Famous’ status it seems to be given, surely that has to go to the amazing German Christmas Markets

Anyway, don’t take my or anyone else’s word for it, why not come yourself and see what it is all about? Certainly the Mop has had me hooked since I was a child who made friends with a lovely show lady on a rifle range. Not sure I could split match sticks with the air guns how I used to now the eye sight is going a bit but it was fun old times and still is for me!

[cathidaw]

Thank you Mop fan;Iwill consider myself well and truly rebuked and no offence taken.
Your facts and figures were interesting too...grovel-grovel.
Ishould have realised ,and it had crossed my mind, that there were quite a few 'unregistered' people on this site with all of the differing writing styles, and spellings.
I do love steam fairs and for some years we went to Stourpane Bushes in Dorset which is at the end of September, and the last meeting place of the year for the showmen and women.
We took an art exhibition there travelling in an ancient caravan which we had bought for £30.00 and did painting demo.s in a small marquee.
The travelling people were always friendly and my children loved going even when it was a quagmire, which some years it was.
Ihave never been to Stratford Mop but now look forward to going.
When is the next one?

[Mop Fan]

No offence taken Cathidaw

Stratford Mop is held actually on the 12th October (opening the night before too). Like Warwick it has a runaway mop which is held a week the following Friday. Though I'm not sure what effect on this the 12th also being a Friday has.

If anyone is interested I will try and confirm the dates for all the Warwickshire Mop fairs and add them on here. I know the immediate ones but there are some in places like Alcester, Studley and a number of others whose dates I would need to look into before passing onto anyone for certain. Mop fairs with one or two exceptions are very much a Midlands tradition.

[chillitt]

Thanks for that, mop fan. One point to clear up, I laughed at the threat made to my business because it was pathetic, not because I thought it funny. There is nothing funny about threatening people. I have called for the mop to change, not close. If it wont change then thats another matter.
Lots of interesting stuff there.. Any where we can read the actual charter? The stuff I posted was linked from the showmans guild website, but without any info on where the information came from, or what it actually means!
Sorry, but I remain unconvinced that the siting of stalls being traditional prevents any change in lay out, (despite it possibly being the most 'traditional' thing about the current mop.)
Whatever your (or my!) personal taste in diesel fumes v coal fires, the fumes from the generators are carcinogenic, and I was not exagerating when I said I had to close my shop because of the fumes last year. Clearly that is unacceptable. As of 1st July, Smoking will be illegal in my shop, so I do not see why I should have to choke on exhaust fumes instead.
I do not see anything here which would compare to people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the bells, its more akin to complaining when the bells are swapped for a PA system playing jive bunny on a loop for 2 days.

In the time I have been here, I have never had anyone from the mop or the council come in to see if there are any problems. Lots of mop people tearing about, doing their thing, though. Its probably a lack of communication between the 2 groups that has lead to all this. Perhaps someone from the showmans guild and the council could attend a chamber of trade meeting to get some sort of dialogue going?

If things don't change, My shop for one, will be closed while the mop is here, and that is not a good thing on a number of levels.

[Unregistered]

to chillit,i am just one one of the many people unregistered whove been posting on here,i too came across it by accident while doing a search on fairs,ive just been busy reading a lot of posts as ive been away for a couple of days,i must say however im disgusted at the "lets close chillitts shop campain" comment which was uncalled for because you as are the showmen just wanting to earn an honest living,i hope you didnt take it to seriously,if you are genuinely getting fumes in your shop you really need to address this with youre authority maybe even get a toxins meter and take some levels during the mop,just a note on the street power points one would assume they were put there for such events as the mop and victorian day etc,so therefore they should have the relevent transformers ,as they have at other street fairs i have seen.

[optrex]

Ooops, sorry - it's actually on 29th November.

Will do - tell you what can you put it in the calendar for WOL, so we all get a reminder.

Does anyone use the calendar function?

Also might be a nice idea to put an entry in form the mop too. I've worked out its the weekend after the 12th, but what month? lol

[chillitt]

Despite everything I have said, I think you lot should all come to the mop. Take notes, take pictures. If you can, have a great night out. See for yourselves. Then, if you have any bright ideas to make it better, either let the showmen know, or post it up on here.

[Shizara]

Sounds like a plan to me.

[cathidaw]

Thanks for the information. From today I shall use the WOLcalender.
Ishould remember the mop date --it is on my birthday, but Ineed reminding. Iusually know that something is happening when Imake a date ahead ,but forget what.

[Shizara]

--it is on my birthday, but Ineed reminding.

You need reminding about your birthday?

[Mop Fan]

Ok first up my apologies chillitt, I’d assumed the comment to be a joke as a public forum such as this is hardly the place for threats and I hope any showmen who read this will view the comment about Warwick Mop in the same way. I’m always being told I have a weird sense of humour so guess I mistook this one.

Like diesel or not there is definitely a difference between the occasional waft bringing back memories and sitting in a shop full of it slowly drifting off into a dream state. I agree this is something that needs to be addressed. Naturally as a fan I have no sway whatsoever with the organisers, but I believe one of my friends equipment is near your shop so I will have a quiet word with him and see if anything can be done. I know a few of the showmen have extended length exhaust pipes to carry the fumes up higher but I’m not sure all generators are compatible with this. I believe most of the generators are positioned close to attractions to minimise the lengths of cables that have to be run out. Where possible I know these are raised off the ground but this is not always practical and the further away they are the bigger the problem becomes. The present locations are most likely the result of past complaints about cables. I can only say I will ask and see if something can be done.

The suggestion of the Showman’s Guild and Council meeting with the Chamber of Trade seems a good idea and might go some way to resolving problems. However over the last few years or so many spurious facts have been generated about the Mop by Chamber members resulting in deep trenches between the two sides being dug. Asking a showman to visit a Chamber of Trade meeting would be rather like asking a snowball to pop into hell for a quick chat! Oops there goes my sense of humour again, but hopefully you see my point. However, as most of the mischief has been caused by just one or two individuals it might be possible to progress constructively as many chamber members are positive. I can only suggest that I have a word with a couple of my friends and see what comes up. Maybe one of them would be willing or could find someone who is. Or it may be possible to set up some kind of communication if a few registered on here, possibly that could work too?

I believe that a specific problem such as the positioning of generators, put over in a manner as you have here could be resolved. Anyone would be understanding towards this as a genuine problem rather than the general ‘Warwick Mop is here lets find fault with it however far fetched’ that has gone before. This is why I suggest chatting to the showmen, although choosing times carefully as ‘build up’ and ‘pull down’ are stressful events for them, which may lead to rather short answers that would certainly not show decorum! Even with showmen friends I have been on the receiving end of some of these! :O) I suspect it will be a lengthy process to repair the damage that has gone before but it could be done with benefits to all.

Anyway, I will close with another anecdote which some of you may find interesting. One generator is sited across the road from St Mary’s Church and was used to run an arcade a few years ago. A couple had arranged their wedding day for what would be Mop Saturday. To their dismay the noise of the generator running in the background was being recorded by the camera equipment they were using to tape their special day. They chatted to the showman and he agreed to switch it off for the full duration of the service. So just before the bridal car arrived, the generator stopped, the music stopped, the showmen in that end of town sat through out the service without taking money and the happy couple got their video recording without disruption. Pity they didn’t have a dodgem car with the wedding ribbons on!!! :O)

[chillitt]

There has to be better communication between showmen and the locals, and not just through the council. The shopkeeps and residents have absolutely no option but to have whatever is deemed best by the showmen or the council foisted on them, and we have no point of contact with the mop. As you say, the people setting up can be quite curt at times, and that doesn't help the cause.
To say a meeting with the C of T would be difficult because of entrenched views is all very well but they feel like they have been run roughshod over for years, so it is understandable. If the parties involved in northern ireland can sit down together, surely the S.G and the C of T can have a sit down somewhere...
Moving generators would be very nice, but won't that just give someone else the same problem? :rolleyes:

Still no sign of an actual charter anywhere, by the way. Any of the showmen know where it is?

[Madhatter]

All mains cables are 415v three phase, and it's easy to drop 240v down to 110v (in old voltages I know 240v is 230v now etc). The market stall lighting should be running off 110v supplies anyway. The reason all main feed cables along streets are 415v is that some big shops actually do run on 415v, they have fridges, freezers, lifts escalators etc which are three phase, that is three live supply wires. Shops that run on 240v street lighting etc, is fed by just one of these phases, so one live supply. Every third shop will be on the same phase.

When the breach (junction) where the three phase supply to my block comes of 'blew' because it was old and put under strain with the draw of the christmas lights, only my flat went off and upstairs, the other four flats stayed on.

There should be no reason why unmetered supply points can't be fitted in the town centre other that actual costs involved.

[Unregistered]

this has been an interesting debate,one which i have enjoyed very much,long live the mop and i just hope the problems for the locals and shopkeepers can be resolved sensibly and constructively,i also hope chillit you dont have to close your shop for the duration of the mop as that would be a great shame,just out of interest chillitt what type of shop do you have?try doing some mop specials and use the occasion to make a killing
regards to all.

[chillitt]

try doing some mop specials and use the occasion to make a killing
regards to all.

I am sorry, but that appeals to my sense of humour... (odd though it is..)
I may even start a separate thread for it.. 'specials for when the mops here...' any suggestions? Ear plugs? Blinkers? :rolleyes:

[optrex]

Wellies ???

oh, and a bucket - always useful when mopping ;)

[Shizara]

Wellies? - Gumboots! - You can't be without them! Here's why....

(Intro, spoken, with gusto.) 'Righto, kick it in the guts, Trev... '

<o/'>

C G F C (aka as guitar chords)
Gumboots, they are wonderful, gumboots, they are swell
F C Dm G7
'coz they keep out the water, and they keep in the smell.
C F C
And when you're sittin' round at home, you can always tell
F C G C
When one of the Trevs has taken off his gumboots.

Chorus:
If it weren't for your gumboots, where would ya be?
You'd be in the hospital or infirmary
'coz you would have a dose of the 'flu, or even pleurisy
If ya didn't have yer feet in yer gumboots.

Now there's rugby boots and racing boots, and boots for drinkin' rum.
But the only boots I'm never without, are the ones that start with "gum".
I've got short ones and long ones, and some up to me belt.
I'm never dressed 'till I've got on me gumboots.

Whenever I sing at the opera, my gumboots are a must.
They help me hit the high notes, and protect me feet from dust.
They keep the water well away, so me voice won't get no rust.
You will not never see me without me gumboots.

Now (names of current unpopular politicians), they haven't made a hit.
They're ruining the country, more than just a bit.
If they keep on how they're going, we'll all be in turd.
So you'd better get yer feet up yer gumboots.

</o/'>

Sung by Fred Dagg

[chillitt]

You can take the girl out of the colonies, but you can't take the colonies out of the girl.....:D :rolleyes:

[Shizara]

:woohoo1:

[Rainbow]

I worked most of the Mops including Southam, Stratford and Warwick. Warwick was by far the worst the others passed off trouble free which is quite a rarerity. I dont see the point in them staying as long as they do one weekday night would be good.

having them at weekends when police resoures are stretched as it is due to alchohol related incidents means there are less to deal with anyhting or to make a presence felt.

[Toad]

Have you read what the MOP people want to do now. Plan our new bus station in Warwick for us. They are moaning that they haven't been 'consulted'. Who the hell do they think they are?!

[chillitt]

Don't tell me, not enough free electric for them... (actually I would not like to have to choose between WDC and the showmen as far as planning goes...)
Hey ho, won't be long now...:rolleyes:

[ronlyre]

It's not the actual mop I object to, it's the prices they charge. You can see it in the faces, the kids are smiling while the adults grimace every time they have to dip into the wallet.:eek: (how much???)

(Many years ago I wanted to be the man on the dodgems. Jumping from car to car, fag in gob, numerous tattoos...oh the glamour of it all)

[Toad]

Never mind, Chillitt, we can always close and have a few well deserved days off!!

[optrex]

I've added it to the site calendar as I didn;t know when it was on. Hopefully now I'll get a reminder

[Toad]

oprex, don't bother! It's a tawdry affair - with lots of fighting yobs. Come to the Victorian Evening (29th November) which is much more civilised and actually put on by the people of the town rather than inflicted upon them.

[chillitt]

Has any more been heard about the charter? Or any of the other suggestions made to the slightly mardy showman?:rolleyes:

[Unregistered]

I think it is great fun to have the mop not only does it draw in buisenss to all the small shops that winge through out the year that they have none. It also brings communities closer and Is fun. I pity the people who just dont want to have fun and stick there noses up at the kids in the town to have 2 weekends of fun. I cant wait for the mop this year. It has been held for over 100 years so im sure there not going to stop it because a small minority of people dont enjoy it!

[chillitt]

Yes the violence last year on the saturday night was such fun! Can't beat a bit of good old fashioned fighting in the streets.. :rolleyes: (for the hard of thinking, thats sarcasm not incitement to join in...)

[Toad]

Well said, Chillett, and to 'unregistered' may I pointout, as one who runs a small shop in Warwick, that the mop does not bring in any extra business - it brings lots of extra trouble. And we don't whinge the rest of the year - business is extremely good - except when the mop is in town. Please check your facts with those that have to experience this tawdry little event year after year.

[Toad]

Sorry, Chillit, didn't answer your question, which is that the Showmans Guild have no more right to stage the mop than anyone else but they have been awarded a ten year contract by WDC (with a five year review) and no one is quite sure who bribed who but there is a lot of underhand goings on! Talk to your local councillors for more details.
Meanwhile, they are trying to interfere with the new bus station, despite the fact that their contract clearly states that they cannot interfere with council policy.
Best advice, Chillitt, have a couple of weekends off, swallow the losses (you'll do better once it's gone!) and pray that it disappears soon!

[Toad]

As the grubby little funfair moved in today I had a quick walk round and discovered that 50% of the shops will either close or close early for fear of the violence that the mop brings.
Meanwhile, the council must be preparing to tell us how much it costs for the loss of business, loss of parking revenue, extra staff, extra insurance and extra policing that this 'event' costs.
It should make interesting reading!
Have a good weekend!!

[chillitt]

yesterday I went tearing round the countryside fetching my weeks worth of stock early cos the boss usually brings it in on a Saturday, and clearly thats not going to happen this week, I got back to Warwick at 5.30. cutting it a bit fine for the 'handover' at 6pm, only to find they have 'blockaded' the town centre, the marshalls either just laughed when I asked if I could get to my shop, or threatened to block me in for the weekend if I even parked up. So now instead of all the jobs I had today which need transport, I sit looking a truckfull of heavy things that I want rid of, and my customers are waiting for, but no way to bring the 2 together. deep joy.
I will just add that seb the PCSO did offer to help me carry my stock across the town, but given that people were queueing up to tell him how much the chaos had upset them, I thought he had better things to do...


Just a thought, if they had the Mop on the Warwickshire Exhibition Centre, they could set up for the 10 days, have a fair every night and make a fortune without upsetting any locals....

[Toad]

Well what did you expect?! One of the moppers when in to a sandwich shop at lunchtime and called the guy who runs it a 'frog' because he is Portuguese. They are so rude and they can't even work out the difference between Portuguese and French!
As for getting in to the town, ask me next year and I will get you a pass - then they HAVE to let you in.
Yes, I saw Seb too - what a waste of a policeman - and our town centre manager spent the day tying signs to lampposts. Why are we paying him to promote this rubbish, not his fault but it is a disgrace.
Keep cheerful!

[chillitt]

I'd like to see this charter. I'd like to see the certificate of public liability insurance for the mop, and I'd quite like to see what qualifications the chaps who put the rides together have. I'd quite like to see a representative of the council and the Showmans guild wandering round incase there are any problems. But mostly, I just want to see a week monday....:rolleyes:

[Madhatter]

Atherstone dickens evening November 24th, fair, lights switch on North end of the town centre where the event is held and mine in Welcome street and south Long Street.food, charity tat stalls, crafts in the memorial hall. Big fireworks display to finish.

[Mop Fan]

To answer your question regarding qualifications, showmen have had a lifetime of experience to call on when it comes to building up the rides; many of them will have been doing it since before either of you were born. Their father, their father’s father and so on before them will have done it and passed down the skills. Showmen have a very rich heritage and, although only in town for two weeks, very close ties with the town. Many will have visited Warwick for the first time in their prams and continued to visit annually throughout their lives. I would lay odds that many of the showmen have closer ties with the town than some of the shopkeepers here today.

I personally feel accusing the showmen of being racist is very rude and a sign of how extreme your views are. Some of your comments previously on this website could be considered insulting to the travelling community, a race themselves. I do not wish to be confrontational so I will leave others reading this to form their own views, but personally it has changed my opinion of you greatly.

You may also be interested to note that the slang name for two of the rides at the Mop this year is a ‘frog’. It acquired this name amongst showmen because the earliest models had a giant fibre glass frog in the centre and the up and down motion resembled the children’s game of leap frog. So it may be possible that you have ‘jumped’ to a conclusion through a misunderstanding as one of the rides was located outside a café.

Just to return briefly to an earlier point about Warwick shopkeepers not moaning all the time. This is not the case, it reached such a level in the summer that a local newspaper held an online poll entitled ‘do Warwick shopkeepers moan too much?’ or words to that effect. I found the results from those that voted most amusing!

If I were in your position I would be afraid that I would look silly if I arranged to make a delivery at my shop at a time when I knew the Mop was setting up. I would be worried what conclusions people would form about me if I were to do something like that having so publicly stated my dislike of the event. I think I’d be afraid it would look a deliberate attempt to make a fuss which would damage my cause, especially after the vast amount of publicity and colourful posters this year to advertise the dates and times.

Optrex, stick to your beliefs, if you want to come to the Mop and experience it for yourself don’t let Toad or anyone else put you off. There is still the runaway mop next week if you are free. Likewise don’t let my earlier comments about the Victorian Evening being a shadow of its former self put you off coming to that either. People should be allowed to make their own decisions.

The traditional opening yesterday, where the town mayor, town crier and council officials arrive in their traditional garb (or ‘fancy dress’ as the Chamber of Trade rudely dismisses the town’s heritage in their newsletter) was a great success. A huge cheer from the assembled crowds was heard when informed the Mop would remain in the town centre for years to come. I also share the belief of those at the opening that the shopkeepers flooded out this year have a problem; the Mop is only a temporary inconvenience to those who dislike it. However, most shops were open as usual (including those that have claimed on this website to shut) and a number stayed open into the evening.

Walking around the town the main thing I saw was families having a fantastic time which brought back many happy childhood memories for me when my relations came from as far away as London for the event. This is really what the Mop is about, the community, everyone having a good time with their family, not four days profits or carrying your stock a bit further to your shop.

Finally, good one Chillit ….lets hold Warwick’s oldest tradition the far side of Leamington….can’t see any flaws with that, can anyone else? :O)

[Toad]

I was not accusing anyone of being racist but when you hear 'Oy, Frog, are you going to serve me?' it does make you wonder.
As for the deliveries. Many of us have deliveries from not only this country but also abroad. I'm afraid telling carriers that they cannot deliver because the town is shut just makes them laugh. This year we have had a consignment redelivered - and it is going to cost us £250. Will the mop or the council reimburse us - not a chance!
I have never heard anyone say the mop should be abolished - everyone who gave evidence to the ill-fated 'review' wanted it to be relocated or made smaller in the town. Funny how the majority were ignored, including the councils own advisors!
Anyway, glad you are enjoying it but by contrast our regular customers (almost all locals) wave us a cheery goodbye as the mop arrives and say 'see you in couple of weeks'. There is no profit during the mop just more expense for everyone for which we get no compensation.
Perhaps all these people who like it so much would like it outside their front door - we should try it.

[cathidaw]

How many more 'definitions' of the word racist are we to hear?
Are the showmen really a race apart? A different way of life -yes, but if they have been here in this country and in this business for generations , surely they are British ,the same as the rest of us.
But, oh no- not the same- times change, people change, but not these people who expect things to stay the same with all of the concessions they have always had since the charter was written, no matter how hard it makes life for other people, meaning business people, where 3 or 4 days closing could be a desperate situation.
It is so easy to bandy the word 'racist' about when things are not agreeable.
Am I racist because I dont like dogs, or betting shops,or people who wear purple tights, or trainers with a suit?
I believe the Charter needs looking at to see how much it fits in with our lives today- definately not getting rid of - but adapting.



s

[chillitt]

Mop fan,I arranged my delivery to be outside the times posted on the letter sent to all the shops by the town centre manager, But the mop closed all the roads 2 hours early.
My shop was closed on saturday afternoon and will be next week. the conditions this year were better than last year (see, not all moans..:rolleyes: ) but it's still not worth being there.

Lets see, a fair on a purpose built ground, with all amenities laid on, and a load of park and ride buses just handy, or pilling into an already busy town centre so not even a bike could have got into the market place, let alone a fire engine..
Oh, and while you are here, Mopfan, have you found a copy of the charter yet? I notice that the rides that cannot move because they are held by different families as you said previously, have managed to come to some agreement about moving some rides around, is that allowed in this 'charter'?


And nice to know the only qualification required to build rides is' My dad did it.' Very reasurring....

oldest tradition??? :rolleyes:


One point I will agree with you on, is go and have a look for yourselves, take pictures, and make you own minds up.

[Toad]

Chillit, all the charter says is that there can be a mop IF the local coundil (ie. our representatives) agree to it. The local council owns the rights to mount a mop and, if they want one, it should be put out to tender (which it isn't, which is illegal) and the showmans guild have no more right to mount the mop than you or me.
The whole thing is a farce, especially as the showmans guild is now trying to stop us having a bus station. Our local councils are terrified of these people and we are the ones that suffer.
If you really want a few sleepless nights request the charter and the mop review notes under the freedom of information act - you will be amazed at what has been swept under the carpet!

[chillitt]

If you really want a few sleepless nights request the charter and the mop review notes under the freedom of information act - you will be amazed at what has been swept under the carpet!

Do you know I just might do that....
As a matter of interest, once information has been 'freed' can I do what I like with it, Like publishing it, as a leaflet?:rolleyes:

[Toad]

Yes, it's in the public domain and you can do as you wish. Contact Warwick District Council's amenities department, ask for Ian Coker. Or ask Adrian Field, our town centre manager. Either will arrange for all the relevant documents to be copied to you. Ask for a copy of the charter, the legal opinion that was obtained about the status of the mop and the mop review notes. Settle back with a bottle of wine - and be amazed at how we have been conned!!

[Madhatter]

Racism, qualifications, charters blah blah blah. If its a new ride they're going to get training from the ride manufacturer, they need to know how the thing goes together, safety checks, maintenance program. Have you any idea how much new rides actually cost?
They then show others how to do, that the equivalent of an apprenticeship.
FACT these rides are safer than Alton Towers, they are checked as they are set up, Alton Towers are checked once a year. For example... A bolt on a ride is wearing, on a travelling fair its spotted as its set up and replaced, at Alton towers it's not spotted for a year, that's if it's spotted at all. On a travelling fair people with years of experience are running these rides, or at the very least nearby. At Alton towers it's mostly seasonal jobs, they have little experience and little interest in the job they do, it's a job not a livelihood.

Criticising what just isn't true isn't going to fix the problems. Why don't you find out through the correct channels why you wasn't allowed in when you should have had access. A road closure is a legal thing, it's illegal to close or obstruct a road without authority to do so. The order should say when it starts and finishes.

[chillitt]

Criticising what just isn't true isn't going to fix the problems. Why don't you find out through the correct channels why you wasn't allowed in when you should have had access. A road closure is a legal thing, it's illegal to close or obstruct a road without authority to do so. The order should say when it starts and finishes.

when there is a psco standing by the 'blockade' saying 'We have handed the town over now, there's nothing we can do..etc' then it knock my faith in the authorities..
As for The Correct Channels, who would you suggest? no one is prepared to stand up and say 'We run this,' and involve the locals at all.

[Toad]

Why would they want to involve the locals - far too simple!
Never mind, they are gone tomorrow and we can count the cost and get on with our lives.

[chillitt]

Why would they want to involve the locals - far too simple!
Never mind, they are gone tomorrow and we can count the cost and get on with our lives.

Just as long as they don't wipe out anymore lamp posts, and turn the towns electricity off again on the way out...:rolleyes:

[Unregistered]

I have been informed the town centre has had a number of power cuts this year and I was there when yesterdays happened. As the lights went out and the alarms sounded the showman I was talking to remarked 'I wonder how long it will be before we get the blame for this?'. I guess now I can inform him it was less than twelve hours afterwards and that my prediction of it being an 'unnamed' shopkeeper was correct.

Its a shame the mop is the only thing leaving town today!

[Unregistered]

With one phone call to the electricity supplier, it was possible to ascertain that the power cut was caused by a cable fault on an over head pylon out of town. This fault knocked out the supply to just over three thousand properties.

Is this just becoming a case of you blaming the mop for everything, however unrelated or fictitious it may be?

[chillitt]

With one phone call to the electricity supplier, it was possible to ascertain that the power cut was caused by a cable fault on an over head pylon out of town. This fault knocked out the supply to just over three thousand properties.

Is this just becoming a case of you blaming the mop for everything, however unrelated or fictitious it may be?

No, but a power cut while the mop chaps were wandering about with huge 'extension leads' and moving lorries about, It was quite believable at the time...I was told by someone who said they saw it, that a lorry knocked a lamp post over.(I was also told that it was down to someone trying to rig the wires for the mop to the council power points, but chose not to place too much credence in that one)
Incidentally, you have also said repeatedly there is a charter, but still haven't backed that up.
Yours from a shopkeeper who has closed up early(again) because it isn't worth being there while the mops on.:rolleyes:

BTW have a nice year, maybe we will see you next year:)

[Toad]

Yeah, we were blacked out as well. Haven't a clue why. Just added a bit more misery to the last two weeks. I'm off tomorrow to explain to the bank manager why we need a bigger overdraft - luckily he lives in Warwick and appreciates the problems, unlike most of the people who want to keep it - strange that!
Chillitt, use the freedom of information act to get the review papers. I know of at least three other businesses who have applied for them. You CAN make a difference!

[Toad]

With one phone call to the electricity supplier, it was possible to ascertain that the power cut was caused by a cable fault on an over head pylon out of town. This fault knocked out the supply to just over three thousand properties.

Is this just becoming a case of you blaming the mop for everything, however unrelated or fictitious it may be?

Interesting, I was told it was a fault in the town centre. Not blaming anyone - these things happen.

[Toad]

I have been informed the town centre has had a number of power cuts this year and I was there when yesterdays happened. As the lights went out and the alarms sounded the showman I was talking to remarked 'I wonder how long it will be before we get the blame for this?'. I guess now I can inform him it was less than twelve hours afterwards and that my prediction of it being an 'unnamed' shopkeeper was correct.

Its a shame the mop is the only thing leaving town today!

Who blamed the moppers - confused, please explain.

Incidentally, would you like us all to 'leave town today'? Have you any idea how much we pay in business taxes to subsidise your council tax? Sorry we inconvenience your enjoyment of the funfair, but do they pay business taxes to subsidise you? No, they don't. Bear it in mind.

[Unregistered]

when there is a psco standing by the 'blockade' saying 'We have handed the town over now, there's nothing we can do..etc' then it knock my faith in the authorities..
As for The Correct Channels, who would you suggest? no one is prepared to stand up and say 'We run this,' and involve the locals at all.

perhaps chillit you need to reflect on your law studies slightly more before slating the rol eof the PCSO who was stood preventing you from parking outside your shop to collect your one lunch bag from the store. If memory serves you were the rudest person I have ever had misfortune to listen to speaking to another.

The roads are closed using the town and police clauses act, and the only way you will be able drive on the closed road is if a Constable in uniform allows you to do so. The PCSO was not able in law to let you drive past

OH yeah policing of the mop comes at no extra cost as its a public event

[chillitt]

Hello! welcome back..:rolleyes:
The road was closed 40 minutes before the Time all the traders were told the roads would be closed, thats not helpful.. I have apologised to the PCSO for being intemperate,(he laughed and said he it was a nonsense too. You must be a delicate little flower if thats the worst you have ever heard) and If you heard me, then you would have seen a large car packed with some very heavy things... I hope you have a good mop this year cos I aint going to be there.:D
By the way any luck with finding a copy of the charter yet??

[Mop Fan]

[QUOTE=chillitt;8978]Hello! welcome back..:rolleyes:

Oh dear, you assume it is me for some reason????? Do you honestly think I would want this information bringing to the front again, you may notice I only respond when there are inaccuracies and blatent fiction typed here.

Interesting I'm not alone in my opinion of you, hope you have an enjoyable holiday wherever you are going!

[chillitt]

[QUOTE=chillitt;8978]Hello! welcome back..:rolleyes:

Oh dear, you assume it is me for some reason????? Do you honestly think I would want this information bringing to the front again, you may notice I only respond when there are inaccuracies and blatent fiction typed here.

Interesting I'm not alone in my opinion of you, hope you have an enjoyable holiday wherever you are going!

I assumed nothing..

Correct this then.. There is no charter referring to a fair in Warwick Market place and the surrounding streets.

Oh, to save you wasting your time, I couldn't care less what you think of me! I hope you enjoy the fair too:)

[Mop Fan]

Believe that if it brings you comfort!

[f'north]

having read through the forum to try and find where I can find a copy of the charter myself, I am resigned to the fact that unless I try and obtain a copy under FOI with Warwick Town council as I believe thats where its kept, the only other way to find out its content would be to attend the official openeing where the charter is read to the town, and the mop fair is then declared open.

Chillit, I appreciate you do not wish to attend the mop, but perhaps this is the easiest way to start understanding the content of the charter

[chillitt]

Royal charters are held here. Royal Charter (http://www.privy-council.org.uk/output/Page26.asp)
Nothing about the mop though..:rolleyes:

[Unregistered]

to add to your list of past problems have you noticed that there is always a increase in crime and there are also numerous fights which often occur at the mop. Remember seeing a lot of police tape about 2 years ago! Just last year i remember seeing someone smash a shop front window and i also saw a fight....! Can get a little crazy especially with the small police force Warwick has.

[timbo1911]

fed up with shopkeepers moaning i was up mop sat afternnon every shop was busy all cafes u couldnt get a seat so stop bloody moaning its tradition to hold mop fair

[cathidaw]

NOT MUCH USE IF YOU DONT SELL FOOD.
I SHOULDN'T IMAGINE THAT OTHER TYPES OF SHOPS WOULD BE BUSY-EXCEPT FOR PEOPLE JUST WANDERING ABOUT.
I had the same problem in Bedworth-when Victorian days and folk festivals were on, no-one bought anything. Nothing I sold was edible....or 'fun'
People go out for 'FUN' and to 'ENJOY'' themselves with a vengeance - even if it kills them and costs the earth to get it.
When shops pay so much in rates it sticks in the craw when the 3 day trader
has a boom time and pays nothing.
I have a friend who used to 'do' fairs and things with his batch bar, and looked forward to the end of November folk festival to pay for his Christmas in Majorca every year.
(excuse the caps up top -I'm too lazy to re-write.)

[chillitt]

Timbo, it's not uncommon for it to be like that on a Saturday when the Mop isn't here.. the market makes much less noise and mess, doesn't close any roads and is actually useful...
Not half as much fun for those who like flashing lights, din and taking their life in their hands, of course...

[f'north]

Warwick Market useful....... :D :D
It hasn't been any use since they redesigned the town.

If they were to shut the roads for the market, then it would be bigger and better. But no doubt local traders would oppose that too.

[timbo1911]

if u dont like warwick then go live somewhere else all u people do is moan about something

[chillitt]

I love Warwick! (If you think I am one of 'u people':rolleyes: )
It's the chaos the Mop causes I can't stand! Why not have the Mop in St.nicks park? The tradition of the mp is preserved, and the shop keeps have nothing to grumble about, wouldn't that be lovely??

[Madhatter]

Has it been and gone? I wanted to go this year and look around the shops. My bro does every year. It's not the business you do or don't do on the night it's the follow on business you get throughout the year from people that wouldn't normally come to the town but have and notice you're shop. They may not even enter but they think ooow look there's a a nice shop, when we come back to do some shopping.... or even may make a special trip if its a furniture shop or antique shop.

[chillitt]

Madhatter, it's back again this weekend for the runaway fair. Friday and Saturday night. Have fun!:)

[chillitt]

Ready for this?:D

I have to say... It was better this year, as far as I'm concerned anyway!:eek:
Generators were mostly tucked away in the car park, so much less fumes and din, and there seems to be a change in the ~DJ ~ as instead of 10 or 15 second bursts of a handful of tunes repeating, they were playing whole songs. Much better!
I still can't see why it couldn't be held off the road, as it were, but it was tolerable this year ( for the first time, from my point of view) so well done to the organisers.:)

[Shizara]

I am a great believer in speaking up if something isn't right or is an issue, but equally I believe in giving credit when it is due. In this case it is good to see what seems to be an effort made to make the whole business of mopping easier on the business community and I see chillitt is of like mind.

[cathidaw]

I believe we should all speak up about issues that bother us.
That's the most democratic way of getting things sorted, and also most civil.
If we are not heard -then we must speak a bit louder-and then maybe louder still' until 'they' listen..
What riles me is when someone says-if you don't like it -then move house---go away ---switch off! The issues are still there and don't get solved that way.
So -Timbo 1911--that was not very polite, was it now ?
However I talk too much ,so I d like to say welcome to you as a new member.

[Toad]

Here we go again. Let's get a few things straight.
FACT - The Charter says that the local council can, if they wish, hold a mop. If they decide to hold a mop they are required by law to tender for the provider of the mop (best value for the ratepayers etc.), but of course they don't! The Showmans guild have no more right to mount the mop than anyone else.
FACT - The local businesses would love to have the mop as it was and in the traditional way that involved the whole town. If the mop must consist of a funfair completely unrelated to its traditions then move it somewhere more suitable.
FACT - The town businesses lose in excess of 1 million pounds over the two weeks.
FACT - The local council (ie ratepayers) is compensated by charging the funfair.
FACT - The local council do not compensate the local businesses.
FACT - Almost without exception, residents who like the mop do not live or work in the town. During the last review of the mop almost all the residents and businesses wanted it moved (if you don't believe me contact WDC and obtain the evidence from the review)
FACT - We, the taxpayers, pay for all the extra policing.
FACT - The Warwick Town Centre Manager is paid to promote the economic prosperity of the town. But part of his job spec is to manage the mop, which does anything but.
So, love it or loathe it, please get your facts straight before you lay in to Chillitt and others who are trying to make a living and to residents who have their lives turned upside down by fumes, noise and violence.

[f'north]

Ok then,

point taken,

FACT - the showmans guild is a representative body for owners of their own stalls, sounds pretty much like a chamber of trade to me.
FACT - there is no increased cost in policing a budget is set at the start of the year and it comes from that including the policicng of the much loved 'victorian evening' and other events run by the town and the chamber of trade, who have to pay the rides to attend.
FACT - the mop is a family event again this years proves that.

Myth - I love the mop


:D

[Showman]

This does make an interesting read! Spread over so many pages, I think I'm noticing a trend. Perhaps Toad and Chillitt don't like the Mop?

So let me throw a few real FACTS into the mix for anyone wishing to hear the other side of this debate.

FACT - Warwick Mop has happened for centuries, and yes the fun fair came along later (around the time of the industrial revolution), with its bright lights, steam engines and wait for it thrill rides! Now I know the thrills of Victorian times were a little different from today, but lets face it the shop keepers would have lived in Warwick and been cycling to work rather than complaining about parking. (Oh sorry, separate thread where Toad and Chillitt are maoning!)

FACT - Each shopkeeper opened their shop knowing the Mop takes place, instead of choosing Leamington, Kenilworth, Nuneaton, Bedworth...the list goes on, of towns who do not have Mop Fairs! Upon opening their shop a couple realised they would be disrupted a bit four days a year...thats right the Mop isn't in town the other 361! So this couple of shopkeepers set about a campaign to move it by whatever means they see fit, and let's be honest there have been some creative ones over the years!

FACT - Every year so called figures are put about by one individual who seems to have a greater grudge than others. He and a number of friends randomly spout figures like 'millions lost' etc. If Warwick shopkeepers make a million pounds in four days I'd suggest they are rich enough from their takings the rest of the year to let others enjoy themselves for those four days.

FACT - The Mop has hundreds of supporters, it wouldn't happen if thousands of Warwick residents and visitors from further afield didn't come to the town. Online surveys have been carried out by the local press and without fail each time the Mop comes up trumps, this FACT can be viewed at the papers own website.

I could go on and on, but will no doubt soon be recieving a bunch of new Mop Myths in response to this information so perhaps we shall leave it here for now. I would of course be more than happy to address the points raised on here, if other forum members would like to know.

In future I shall keep an eye on this forum, it may be interesting to see what is added.

[chillitt]

Showman, I have just had a look for the poll in the local paper and cannot find anything except reports of the arrests at last years mop and interview with mop organisers telling us how lucky we are to have it here, care to post a link?
Oh and the 4 days of disruption doesn't seem to include the set up days, this year people were being told not to use the roadside parking from midday on the Thursday, So thats 6 days of disruption (I'm not counting Sundays as few shops are open then- only seems fair.)
Are you saying only people who cycle to work are allowed an opinion on the town centre? really? As I have said before we do need someway to get our stock a,into our shops, and b, out and delivered to our customers.

Oh, yes, Still waiting to see a copy of this charter... no rush..

[f'north]

If you so desperately want to see the charter, as I'm guessing you didnt come on the first Saturday to hear it being read, I suggest writing to the Warwick Town Council under FOI and requesting a copy that is where it is stored.

[chillitt]

If you so desperately want to see the charter, as I'm guessing you didnt come on the first Saturday to hear it being read, I suggest writing to the Warwick Town Council under FOI and requesting a copy that is where it is stored.

OK so it's not in the Lord Privy Seals office where all the other Royal Charters are then?

[Toad]

This does make an interesting read! Spread over so many pages, I think I'm noticing a trend. Perhaps Toad and Chillitt don't like the Mop?

So let me throw a few real FACTS into the mix for anyone wishing to hear the other side of this debate.

FACT - Warwick Mop has happened for centuries, and yes the fun fair came along later (around the time of the industrial revolution), with its bright lights, steam engines and wait for it thrill rides! Now I know the thrills of Victorian times were a little different from today, but lets face it the shop keepers would have lived in Warwick and been cycling to work rather than complaining about parking. (Oh sorry, separate thread where Toad and Chillitt are maoning!)

FACT - Each shopkeeper opened their shop knowing the Mop takes place, instead of choosing Leamington, Kenilworth, Nuneaton, Bedworth...the list goes on, of towns who do not have Mop Fairs! Upon opening their shop a couple realised they would be disrupted a bit four days a year...thats right the Mop isn't in town the other 361! So this couple of shopkeepers set about a campaign to move it by whatever means they see fit, and let's be honest there have been some creative ones over the years!

FACT - Every year so called figures are put about by one individual who seems to have a greater grudge than others. He and a number of friends randomly spout figures like 'millions lost' etc. If Warwick shopkeepers make a million pounds in four days I'd suggest they are rich enough from their takings the rest of the year to let others enjoy themselves for those four days.

FACT - The Mop has hundreds of supporters, it wouldn't happen if thousands of Warwick residents and visitors from further afield didn't come to the town. Online surveys have been carried out by the local press and without fail each time the Mop comes up trumps, this FACT can be viewed at the papers own website.

I could go on and on, but will no doubt soon be recieving a bunch of new Mop Myths in response to this information so perhaps we shall leave it here for now. I would of course be more than happy to address the points raised on here, if other forum members would like to know.

In future I shall keep an eye on this forum, it may be interesting to see what is added.

:) Welcome Showman - it's good to broaden the debate.
May I take issue with a couple of your points?
I have never (and nor has anyone else I know) said I don't like the Mop or that I want it stopped. What I have said (along with many others) is that it has outgrown the town setting and should be moved to a more suitable venue (Nottingham did this several years ago and now have the very successful Goose Fair.)
I have never complained about parking - since pay and display it has been much better.
Actually, when we opened our shop it coincided exactly with the mop and no, we had not been warned! We delayed the opening and went to the pub!
It does cost a million pounds in lost turnover (not profit - there is a big difference!) because it isn't just the 6 days that the mop is in town it is the 3 weeks around the mop that is affected. All our regular customers avoid the town from the first to the last week in October because (like Easter) no one knows when it's coming - so they stay away just in case. So the million pounds is actually spread out over about 18 days; which is where the figure comes from - it's well researched with figures from those that are affected.
As to the mops success? It's strange that so many moppers tell me that their takings are awful and they only attend because they are told to. Most that I speak to wish it was at a more suitable venue.
During the revue the Chamber of Trade (representing the businesses) and many local representatives and residents said that they supported the mop but wanted it to move so that it could expand and become successful. It was the stupidity and short-sightedness of the Showmans Guild and the local council (who, illegally, refuse to put the event out to tender) that forced it to remain in the town. So it's a no win situation all round.

[f'north]

Toad, that was probably the most balanced reply to any thing I have seen raised on this thread, and I am for once in agreement with everything in it.

Chillit.... follow this link to the first official recording about Warwicks Charter fair I have been able to find Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs in England and Wales to 1516 (http://www.history.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/gazweb2.html)

[chillitt]

Toad, that was probably the most balanced reply to any thing I have seen raised on this thread, and I am for once in agreement with everything in it.

Chillit.... follow this link to the first official recording about Warwicks Charter fair I have been able to find Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs in England and Wales to 1516 (http://www.history.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/gazweb2.html)

Thanks for that. As far as I can see that say the fair has to be in the borough, not actually in the Market place, the Only place specifically mentioned is the Manor.. It seems to me to say it should be in August, 24th is St. Batholomews day so clearly there is some room for negotiation...
...Unless it's the feast of Simon and Jude on 28th October, which started almost 400 years after the Market charter was granted, making the market one of the oldest traditions in Warwick, by a long way so why should that have to make way for the Mop?

[Showman]

Dear All,

I am more than willing to broaden the debate, if this is what this thread can be called. However, I do take issue with throw away comments particularly posted by chillitt (although I am not solely pointing the blame here) which are unfounded and basically show a prejudice to the showman’s way of life!

Anyway, putting that to one side let me once again address the points you’ve raised Toad. Firstly calling the Showman’s Guild and your local Council short sighted seems a rather rash move to make. Also accusing the Council of illegal acts publicly seems rather risky to me, I personally wouldn’t like to do something such as this in case it resulted in a libel case. I wonder if many councillors read this forum? This doesn’t seem a good way to open what is supposed to be a friendly discussion or win others round to your point of view.

The town centre location is what makes Warwick Mop a Mop and not just a fun fair. I can assure you that any showman would prefer building up in a street to building up in a muddy field. Let’s imagine for just a moment you got your way and the Mop moved, to the race course (as is often suggested despite it being impossible). Opposite the race course are lots of houses all bought by people knowing the Mop happens in the town centre. Now they really would have grounds to complain if it was suddenly moved to their door step. You moved to where the fair happens by choice (a big difference), it didn’t come to you because someone else wanted it moved.

How can you possibly say people do not know when the Mop happens, unlike Easter which is a ‘moveable feast’, the Mop has been the Friday and Saturday after the 12th October for ever and a day? Each Mop town has specified dates, Stratford’s is the 12th, Southam the Monday after the 12th, Banbury Fair is the Wed/Thurs/Fri after the 12th. Notice a trend? Why not take a highlighter to the 12th October on your 2009 calendar then you can work out when it is! In addition posters are displayed in local shops as not everyone is local to the town or knows of the tradition. Maybe you are one of the shop keepers who refuse to display a poster and as such do not inform their customers of the event.

I still find the million pound figure a bit far fetched, we could all speculate lost revenue to any amount we wanted. There is also plenty of evidence to suggest many businesses do benefit. The café’s, restaurants, even the pub benefited from Toad’s opening it would appear! Indeed some businesses hold Mop promotions; again the evidence is there for all to see during the Mop. Obviously some suffer but the fact remains these businesses chose to open in a Mop town and if they did not do their homework when renting their premises can hardly complain after the event.

What I personally would like to see is an honest discussion on the matter. If instead of making ludicrous claims, posting messages about rigged games, racist showmen, balaclava clad gangs of youths and so forth you actually discussed your issues in a reasonable manner I’m sure a different result could be achieved. You can never hope to move the Mop and would waste considerable time and energy in doing so. Just as it cannot be hoped to satisfy everyone when the Mop is in town, the same must apply to other events. I’m sure people moan that the Market is not what it used to be, the Victorian Evening sells ‘flashing LED light sabres’, the craft fair closes Smith Street to traffic and so forth. If everyone worked with it and said ‘ok it happens, how can I make the best of it’ so much more could be achieved from which we could all benefit.

[chillitt]

Mop fan, in this thread I have been called a snob, I have had my business threatened and been roundly abused for expressing my opinion. If there is anything specific that I have said that is untrue or libelous, please point it out.

As for throwaway comments, My car loaded to the gunnels, (and its a big car...:rolleyes: ) was described as ''a lunch bag'', I think by an unregistered visitor to the site claiming to be a mop fan. Does that sound like reasoned debate to you?

[Toad]

Ok, Showman, but please do make sprurios remarks like "....instead of making ludicrous claims, posting messages about rigged games, racist showmen, balaclava clad gangs of youths and so forth...." They are not ludicous claims, and I take great offence to the implication that I have accused anyone of rigging games or being racist. I have actually seen the balaclaverd youths.
None of what I said is libelous. Everything has been put in writing to the council and is part of the minutes of the review. The fact that WDC owns the event is in the charter. There is no mention of any participants and therefore it should be open to all to bid to run a mop.
During the review we traders did everything we could to help the showmen with the mop, including offering to publicise it. It was like talking to the deaf.
I feel I have reached the end of the road with this debate. As the saying goes, 'if banging your head against a brick wall hurts, stop doing it.' There are more important things in life.

[f'north]

Chillit,

I am now beginning to find the research into this really quite interesting, as I am now finding arguments for both sides of keeping and removing the mop.

As for the dates, it is something to do with Michalmas this extract may help

(tewkesbury fair web page)

Farm workers, labourers, servants and some craftsmen would work for their employer from October to October. At the end of the employment they would attend the Mop Fair dressed in their Sunday best clothes and carrying an item signifying their trade. A servant with no particular skills would carry a mop head – hence the phrase Mop Fair.

Employers would move amongst them discussing experience and terms, once agreement was reached the employer would give the employee a small token of money and the employee would remove the item signifying their trade and wear bright ribbons to indicate they had been hired. They would then spend the token amongst the stalls set-up at the fair which would be selling food and drink and offering games to play.

Michaelmas Day is celebrated on the 29th September but Mop Fairs were tied to the seasons and the harvest, not the calendar. When the Gregorian calendar was adopted in 1752 and 11 days dropped from that year events associated with the end of the harvest moved 11 days later to the 10th October. This date is known as "Old Michaelmas Day" and since 1752 has been the date Mop Fairs take place.

Conversley... (from the shomans guild web page)

By the twelfth and thirteenth centuries the majority of English fairs had been granted charters and were reorganised to fall in line with their European counterparts. The granting of charters however did not necessarily herald the right to hold a fair: it was in effect the control of revenues
for the Crown in return for the control and organisation to stay with a particular town, abbey or village. Between 1199 and 1350 over fifteen hundred charters were issued granting the rights
to hold markets or fairs.

Like I said I am really beginnining to enjoy looking into this subject

[Showman]

chillitt.

Why is your comment addressed to Mop Fan when your reply is clearly about my post?

I believe that if you re-read my two previous posts on this subject you will find that I have done none of the things you comment upon. I have taken issue with comments you have made that I know to be incorrect. Had I realised it was merely you expressing your opinion and therefore not based on actual fact, I’m sure that I and others on this forum would not have taken issue with you. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but most people state that it is just that, rather than imply that it is fact.

As a newcomer to the forum, it is not really my place to comment, but in my opinion many of your posts appear confrontational, maybe this has led to the responses you have received.

[Showman]

Toad

Just to clarify, I didn’t say that you did say the games were ‘bent’, that was one of chillitt’s ‘opinions’. With reference to the race comment, I quote ……

[QUOTE=Toad;7270]Well what did you expect?! One of the moppers when in to a sandwich shop at lunchtime and called the guy who runs it a 'frog' because he is Portuguese. QUOTE]

Maybe a misunderstanding but I would think claiming you’d heard that and lumping all showmen together with the sweeping statement ‘They’re so rude’ is pretty close to the mark. As a point of interest referring to showmen as ‘moppers’ could cause offence as well. However, I merely used this as an example to highlight the fact that your approach is hardly pointed towards the constructive discussion I would much rather be having.

I find the assistance offered by traders curious, I was not involved in the review so could not possibly comment, but I have read copies of the Chamber of Trade’s ‘Campaign’ newsletter and they don’t exactly imply a desire to be supportive. In fact they are written in a very similar fashion to some of the posts on this forum, I wonder if that is a coincidence!

You may also find it interesting that I have witnessed a shopkeeper blatantly lie to a new shop owner about what they would experience during their first mop. I was standing right beside him as he did it and found his comments most imaginative. Perhaps you should locate and tackle the individual who does this, should you want to restore faith in the motives of Warwick’s shopkeepers.

I had hoped by joining in this thread it would be possible to have some healthy discussion but to be honest I’m not sure this is likely to happen. I suspect actually both you and chillitt enjoy arguments, as your other posts on different threads are equally controversial. In my opinion having someone on this forum with a good background knowledge of mops and the politics surrounding them, coupled with first hand experience of the antics of the shop keepers in the past, I fully understand that you may well feel you’ve reached the end of the road with this debate.

However you are right; there are more important things in life, many far more important things, bet the credit crunch and the effect it will have on tourism will do more harm to Warwick’s Town centre shops than a decade of Mops! I truly hope this is not the case as Warwick is a very pleasant town.

One final point, you say the Charter states WDC owns the event? I find that puzzling as the district council was not formed until many centuries after the charter was written, just thought you may find that amusing …please note, not trying to correct you it just gave me a good laugh. :105:

[Showman]

F’north

Glad you are finding the subject of mop fairs interesting. I imagine the Tewksbury information will have come from the Preservation Society website. This society was established by supporters of Tewksbury Mop to promote the fair and protect its future for years to come.

Might I suggest we start a separate thread, perhaps in the general forum, on the history of local fairs so that the historical side is not lost amongst the other goings on within this thread?

I would be more than glad to assist in anyway I can with information about showmen or fairs, if you have any questions I can answer.

Good luck with your research.

[chillitt]

Showman I apologise unreservedly for calling you mop fan, I don't know what came over me.
If i am so confrontational why would I post a well done for this years mop note?
What facts have I posted that are incorrect? You seem to be trying to rubbish what I have said without showing any example.
Possibly the point you refer to is me saying 'there is no Royal charter' Well there isn't. It is not a Royal charter. I do wish people would stop referring to it as such.
I am not in the least bit Anti fair or the people running them, I spent a few years attending and showing myself, at steam fairs and such like, and had a lot of fun doing it, but I would not attend any show that caused as much agrivation as Warwick Mop does.

[Lex]

Warwick traders are still wanting to get the mop moved:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-27509203

[Lex]

It's that time of year again: https://www.leamingtoncourier.co.uk/news/people/historic-warwick-mop-fair-returning-to-town-1-9100760

[margaret]

I'm not keen on Warwick Mop taking up space in the town, But that is just me being old and grumpy.
I was wondering if it can be moved, say near the racecourse , isn't there a field next to the racetrack where it can be held? I don't really go that way so I not sure.

[rebbonk]

I would have thought that it was possible with a bit of forward planning to use the racecourse itself for most of the attractions? Or am I being too sensible?

[Lex]

A similar conversation occasionally rears it's head in Stratford as well. All the shops complain that it kills trade, and the locals complain about the traffic being even worse due to the town centre being closed. Unfortunately, the District Council have always remained silent on the issue.